Scanlator site on chapter page

[Bramia]

Right now, a lot of people don't even look at credits pages and from those who do look at them, fewer go to those groups' profile to find their discord/website/contact information (when it's not in the credits page) and visit them.

Given all the current drama, a great thing MD could do to show their support for scanlator groups could be to show, if it exists, a link to read the current chapter in the group's website as the image shows

 

[Oeconomist]

For good or ill, providing such a link would lower the cost to scanlation groups of not continuing to upload to MangaDex. The could upload a chapter or two, and thereafter just draw readers to their own sites.

 

[Bramia]

For good or ill, providing such a link would lower the cost to scanlation groups of not continuing to upload to MangaDex. The could upload a chapter or two, and thereafter just draw readers to their own sites.

It's not really that simple. The idea is indeed to make it easier for people to visit the groups' sites, but MD will not lose its quality of hub. Just take a look at this site's stats. If they upload a chapter or two and then pull out, they will just miss on tons of visits.

 

[shouldsleep]

Ignoring logistics of doing that, the problem is that some groups don't have online readers at all and others are placed behind redirect links, which potentially contain malware.

Iirc, Mangadex allows sites to be linked so long as the host isn't malicious. The same couldn't be said regarding the reader, particularly since fileshare and mega.nz are popular uploading platforms.

 

[Bramia]

Maybe I phrased it wrong. I'd suggest that link to redirect to the group's main page and not the group's reader page exactly for the reasons you mentioned. In other words, that link isn't provided by the person who uploaded that specific chapter but is taken from the group's link

 

[Oeconomist]

@Bramia—

It's not really that simple.

It is exactly that simple. Whether it is in the interests of scanlations groups to do as I suggest that they could is another matter. But, plainly, some groups (eg, Easy Going Scans) choose not to upload here, even with delay, and act to have their scanlations removed when others upload them here. You might think that they miscalculate, but you grossly miscalculate with your attempt here at a prior reasoning.

 

[Bramia]

@Oeconomist

It is exactly that simple. Whether it is in the interests of scanlations groups to do as I suggest that they could is another matter. But, plainly, some groups (eg, Easy Going Scans) choose not to upload here, even with delay, and act to have their scanlations removed when others upload them here. You might think that they miscalculate, but you grossly miscalculate with your attempt here at a prior reasoning.

It's perfectly fine if they decide not to upload here and even better if they attempt to remove the uploads others made of their work. You can't forget that most people

1. Are lazy, so they prefer visiting as few different sites as possible
2. Aren't quite loyal, as long as they can read the chapter comfortably, it's fine
3. Won't find the scanlators' page in their first page of google when looking for that specific manga
4. Won't even realize the group is translating that series if they only public 1 or 2 chapters and then completely stop

MD has huge traffic. It's a bad idea to not use it

 

[Oeconomist]

@Bramia—

First, it's not a matter of scanlator's merely attempting to remove uploads of their scanlations; MangaDex empowers them to do so, which is a key feature distinguishing MangaDex from aggregator sites.

Second, what I noted wouldn't be a matter of scanlation groups not using MangaDex. Previous to your proposal, it had repeatedly been suggested that MangaDex allow links to stand in lieu of uploads, which option would certainly be a way for scanlators to use MangaDex. What you propose would allow for a hybrid use, in which a scanlation uploads just one or a few chapters, and then draws the audience thereafter to their own site. (We can be sure that some groups would engage in such use, because they get advertising revenue from their sites, and this use would increase overall traffic to their sites, whereas they are sure that merely delaying their uploads causes an over-all loss of advertising revenue.)

You may think that such use is fine, but it flies against the arguments against just allowing links in lieu of uploads. So you should read those arguments and address them, or abandon this suggestion.

 

[LowSanity]

@Bramia resonable, what 'bout the groups without their own pages? You would link to their social media?

 

[Bramia]

Sorry for the delay. Work happened.

@Oeconomist
Attempting wasn't the right word. They do it. Correct.
About traffic fleeing from MD, remember the ones directly affected by traffic are the owners of pages that depend on ads. This is not the case for MD. MD is funded by donations which I don't think will be affected by this. At most, it would increase the donations received by the ones who made the translations.

@LowSanity
For simplicity's sake, I only suggested the website. The social network could be used when there's none though

 

[Oeconomist]

@Bramia—

You seem to resist attending to what I've said.

What you propose creates a mechanism whereby scanlators can post a very few chapters to MangDex, and then none further, using those few chapters more readily than now to draw readers away from MangaDex to their sites. It would be very close to allowing them just to post links to their chapters without uploading any.

Telling us that it wouldn't be in their real interest is beside the point, because we see from their present behavior that they do things that you think aren't in their interest.

Would it be bad to allow them just to post links? Maybe not, but that idea has been discussed and rejected. Would it be bad to help them to upload a few chapters but only a link to the rest? Maybe not, but that's not much different from what has already been discussed and rejected.

 

[Bramia]

@Oeconomist
I find that not unlikely, but unrealistic. MD has a reliable way to follow both your progress and the updates of mangas TL'd by tons of groups and individuals. It's really comfortable and easy to navigate. Getting updates is far better from here than the original groups' sites.

Also, do you think most people would visit the group's link to read that specific chapter? I really don't think so. At most it would be used to get to know the group and see what else they've made after they've finished with the chapter, which is exactly what supporting groups is about, and what the goal of this suggestion is

Posting only a link is by no means comparable to a link that is hidden by a side bar in the reader; that not only doesn't redirect you to that specific chapter's link, but to the main site so that old discussion isn't really relevant here

 

[Oeconomist]

@Bramia—

You are still not attending to what I've previously said.

do you think most people would visit the group's link to read that specific chapter?

Your implicit presumption that scanlators are all interested in maximizing the number of readers is flatly wrong. Again, the actual behavior of various of them clearly shows otherwise (and, even if it had not, the presumption would still have involved a non sequitur).

Scanlators will respond to the the incentives provided, in accordance with what they regard as their interests, not to what you presume to be their actual interest. Some of them would respond to the options that you propose by uploading one or two chapters, and use the link that you say should be offered to draw readers to their sites for all the rest of the scanlations. That natural response is what makes the links that you propose analogous to links of sort that have already been rejected.

 

[MadeOfMagicAndWires]

@Oeconomist

Framing it as "lowering the cost to leave" is the wrong way to look at it I think. It assumes the end-goal is to make scanlation groups as dependant upon Mangadex as possible, just to keep them on this site, and if they weren't dependant there would just be a mass exodus.
This is not the case, as it is now Mangadex is far more dependant upon scanlators posting here than the other way around. Scanlators largely post here in order to reach a wider audience and, in most cases, it's far from the only place they post their chapters (not counting the stealing that's going on as well), or in some it's simply that they don't have upload restrictions and they don't upload here in person at all, it's just users doing other users a favour.

Giving scanlators some more tools to control their releases and promote their own sites will therefore not necessarily mean they will go for a rip and run strategy of never upload their chapters here any more. As it is everyone is already plugging their various discords, patreons and whatnot; clickthrough rate not withstanding. Providing more direct links to the various' groups portals might alleviate the need for the group delays, which is partly the cause of this drama.

Moreover, that strategy wouldn't be that bad from Mangadex' perspective. Even if groups would only upload credit pages or links informing people of a new chapters, Mangadex would still fulfil it's hub role and people would still visit Mangadex' site foremost to get their updates. This model works well enough for NovelUpdates, so I don't see why it couldn't work for Mangadex.

That said, Mangadex does provide a nice uniform reading (and uploading) experience and if anything I think more and more groups will upload here foremost, if only to avoid the hassle of having to host an online reader themselves.

Lastly, discussing rejected proposals isn't necessarily redundant. Obviously it shouldn't be done immediately or all the time, but some proposals can and should be re-evaluated because they turn out to be decent proposals after all or because circumstances changed.

 

[Oeconomist]

@MadeOfMagicAndWires—

First, do not pseudo-quote. I didn't use the phrase “lowering the cost to leave”, not did anyone else prior to you. Your putting it in quotation marks creates the spurious impression that I've argued that the matter was one of lowering the cost to leave, and then you can wale on that straw-man for three or four paragraphs.

And I didn't say that he shouldn't revisit the prior arguments; I said explicitly that he should either address them or abandon his suggestion. He chose to do neither.

This argument has last quite a few iterations without defenders of the suggestion addressing the actual criticism directed against the it. Please stop tagging me to waste my time.

 

[Bramia]

@Oeconomist

First, do not pseudo-quote. I didn't use the phrase “lowering the cost to leave”, not did anyone else prior to you.

Read your first comment

And I didn't say that he shouldn't revisit the prior arguments; I said explicitly that he should either address them or abandon his suggestion. He chose to do neither.

Just because I didn't quote and answered your every sentence like I'm doing here doesn't mean I didn't answer your concerns.

But just because it didn't seem to go through with what I said before, I'll give you an example...

Group Bramia Scans decides to TL Generic Harem Isekai. I get a rather big audience because I posted it in both my site, MD and many other aggregators copied my release. However, because I didn't like the layout in MD, I decided to stop while still releasing the chapters in my own site.

Scenario 1: Now
A reader liked the chapters but didn't find any more releases; so he clicked on the group's profile link that pops in every released chapter and visited its site to find there were actually many more released

Scenario 2: Site link in chapter
A reader liked the chapters, but because he had just read the last one and clicked in the last page, he was redirected to the manga's main page; sending him to the exact same situation as in Scenario 1.

This doesn't make it easier for groups to pull out after posting a couple chapters. The method of finding the group's website when they stop releasing is exactly the same before and after this suggestion

 

[Oeconomist]

@Bramia—

Read your first comment

I know what I actually said, and it wasn't what I was misrepresented as saying. A scanlator who loads one or two chapters of each series has not left, he/she/they are instead not continuing to upload for those series past the first few chapters.

Just because I didn't quote and answered your every sentence like I'm doing here doesn't mean I didn't answer your concerns.

Yes, but that point of logic (which refutes nothing that I've said) doesn't mean that you have addressed the issue. You haven't.

This doesn't make it easier for groups to pull out after posting a couple chapters.

What I said was that it made it less costly for the group. The party for whom it makes things easier are the readers who then move to that other site more easily, which was the very point of your suggestion. In making it easier for readers to go to other sites, it makes it less costly for groups to do what I've noted they will do. (Making it easier for the customer to get to that part of the store containing something reduces tne cost of the store-owners offering it only at the store.)

Again, you misrepresent the actual criticism, and the natural inference is that you cannot respond well to it.

 

[Bramia]

@Oeconomist
The reason why I say I've been addressing your point is because I've been arguing on the positive points of MD in all my replies. It's still a superior choice for readers even if they decide to also visit the groups' sites. It's not a "one or the other" situation. People still need a hub, but also want to support specific groups

Also, I read "costly" as "hard". If it costs you many readers to leave the platform, then it's hard for you to leave the platform.

 

[Iceblade20]

I do have a questions?
Would there be any problems arising,
for scanlators to take previously completed series that have been scanlated ,
refurbish it to particular specifications and re-upload to be Mangadex exclusive again

 

[Oeconomist]

@Bramia—

Talking-up what you imagine to be the pros of your proposal is not addressing the cons; by itself, it is ignoring the cons.

(But you've not confined yourself to talking-up pros; you've misrepresented the presentation of cons.)

A thing is not necessarily easier for being less costly (nor vice versa), and you are simply continuing to ignore how, in making it easier for readers to get the continuation of a series at a scanlator's own site, MangaDex would be making it less costly for scanlators to upload only sample chapters and no more.

A series entry with only sample chapters is just one step away from a series entry with only links to a scanlation site.