This is more of a shortlist of ideas mixed with legalese, but still;
[ol][*]Group permission to allow, disallow (from anyone below contributor or staff role for instance), or disable comments on chapters. Other options (such as filter by users, content, or tone) could be trialled, but the three options listed would be some of the simplest changes to the current infrastructure, and require minimal further oversight at current.[/*][*]Guidelines to in-chapter credit pages; disallowing the use of insults, or otherwise negative or snide remarks to another entity contributing directly to a title without the entity's consent. Note that chapters available before the first of the month of the implementation would not be subject to these directly without a certain period.[/*][/ol]The purpose of these changes would be to act on the current issues within the capacity of the current infrastructure.
If there are other means this could be implemented, please post them as they may be appreciated.
I do not have a clue how to interpret the pole. Seems like 2 options written 3 times, with 1 cop-out.
#1, IMO, is a bad idea to solve a problem that doesn't really exist. I am not saying it doesn't happen, but that it doesn't happen enough to be a problem for the current system. Adding more moderators as needed to handel it seems better to me than giving groups permisions to moderate comments. While readers get heated more often than groups, the groups, as you mentioned, are often just as bad, if not worse, when fighting with eachother. Do we really need to give these pissed off scanlators the right to lock down threads just because they don't want to hear the backlash to their childish cover page insults? Remember, spoilers will move to series comment page when chapters get locked.
#2. I get this. Very common when scanlators are fighting, they induce the flame-war, often intentionally. But, its not entirely enforceable. To begin with, MD, while great, is not the goto solution for publishing fanlations. Many uploaders upload content from groups that simply don't live here. If these groups get pissed and add cover pages that violate the rules, then what? Are you telling the uploaders to modify the scanlation? I strongly believe MD will never get behind this. Are you saying we simply are not allowed to upload it, and have to ask the scanlator to remove that? Ok, sure.... not really going to work though. I can see an apology going out next chapter, but editing the already uploaded chapter is less likely. Already published, damage done, cant remove copies on most other sites. Sure, removing it wouldn't be hard, but... other than to appease MD (a site they may not use), why should they?
I intensely dislike Youtube videos with disabled comments. I'm eagerly awaiting the forum/comment engine upgrade planned for Mangadex. So, it goes without saying disabling chapter comments is the last thing I want to see. It would be nothing but the latest chapter in the big "minority ruins everything for the majority" tragedy going on in the world.
If Mangadex staff, in their discussions with living scanlators, decided to supervise credits pages, I'd naturally have nothing to say about it. It's not something that would affect readers. In fact it wouldn't affect even the vast majority of scanlators in practice.
@Kaarme I would argue that it does affect the majority of scanlators, just, not most of the time. Most scanlators get pretty pissed when some random group starts scanlating a series they are working on. And its not uncommon for the sniper to be pissed from the start, as we saw with Trash Scanlations and Trash 3.0 (cover/end page war). Also Lolimamoritai and their sniper, as you may remember from Interview #1, Slow AF scanlations.
Let me add a quote from that interview
[ul]
My group is currently only working on Potion Loli. Which is honestly hilarious becauseI'm literally only doing it out of pure spite
@firefish5000 No, I meant that since most groups or one-person operations don't include credits pages offensively targeting other groups, they wouldn't be affected by rules regulating credits pages. Only the few scanlators who happened to post such pages would lose that sort of an attack vector. If we count an indirect positive effect for the targeted groups, then you certainly are correct, but I was approaching the thing from the technical pespective (like if a group needs to do anything differently).
@firefish5000
Yes, it is 2½ options (really).
As I said; with current infrastructure. Current MD does not have the moderators to go around; so it would stay a temporary fix until such a time as MD could.
It isn't giving groups permission to moderate comments so much as saying "people need to be trusted at least this much to comment" as opposed to "anybody may comment". "No comments" is somewhat of a nuclear option; and would act as more of a redirect than anything.
I would say that inducing a flame war is basically the same as giving consent in this case; so it would need some basic moderation oversight but not so much as to cause issues. If they want to start a flame war, they can deal with others pushing at them.
@Kaarme
Disabling comments is kind of a nuclear option until we have a decent means of moderation beyond human requirements; and would likely just redirect comments to other places eg the title comments page or the scanulation site. This has occurred previously with champi and jamini; and is quite indicative of non-collective entities as a whole.
I say the second to reduce the impact of current occurrences so that flame wars start in a means that dies quickly; eg through live comments.
@firefish5000
I would say that the poor speed that a group can perform an option is quite indicative of some of the current issues. And with the potion isekai; I feel that the series was pushed to be better by Slow. It is unfortunate that Loli Mamoritai had poor English skills; but they were doing the best they could with what they had. My own translation would likely have worked out to be worse than theirs; but Slow was offering a higher quality translation, resolution, and cleaning. If a person holds spite; I feel they have the want to use it to create ssomething better. But… only the want; not necessarily the drive or means to do so.
It's not the greatest idea; but it's within the possibility of ideas.
I think people need to grow a thicker skin and/or take responsibility for their choice to go to the comments. Ergo, no messing with comments section.
2 I could see, honestly credit pages should be just that, CREDITS, in my opinion. Adding in all this fancy crap is kinda unnecessary. Any weird but relevant discussion point scanslators want to make can do so in the comments. Frankly I'd be cool with the rule just saying "credit pages should just be a simple text page saying who did what work, nothing more." (IE: "Translator- person A, Editor- Person B, QC- Person C.) if this really is just such a big damn issue, but from what I've been able to tell, it's literally just 2 groups complaining about one another and everyone is acting like this is a site-wide issue.
Agree. It is rare for either of the two points above to really be an issue.
Group problems are rare. I would say it occurs about 80% of the time when a snipe pops up on an actively translated series, but still rarely an issue. Which is why I have a hard time saying either are a good idea. Sure, its not good when it happens, but, its not our right to say what they put on the credits page, and we cannot tell the uploaders to strip the credits page from a group they are not part of. So the question from #2 becomes "When this happens, can we read the chapter on MD"? And the answer becomes "No". Which is why I am against this idea.
And again, I don't believe 1 is an issue. Sure, it is occasionally bad, but moderates are pretty quick to take action. From my experience, within the day. Unless your looking for within the hour professional site-wide moderating, or have a much more narrow view of what is acceptable content, I don't think a new system is needed. We have, as you said, very few staff. But expanding it would be easier to do than I believe you think. If they thought it was an issue, they would recruit more trusted people. And in the very off chance that they do not have a list of people they have worked with (The staff are scanlators, and they work with other scanlators on the site) that they are considering to recruit if things get out of hand, I would expect an announcement here or on discord that they are recruiting (I really don't expect this, bc from my limited knowledge, Holo likes to recruit people he already trusts).
This site is growing. We are getting more and more users every day. But, believe it or not, there are far more than 12 people who care enough about this site to take time out of their day to guide it in the right direction. And these people have a few more friends outside the round table.
For the time being, if you see something you think is a problem, report it. If it really is a problem, I am pretty sure it will vanish within 4-8hrs during prime time, or 12 hrs during the current low period when we have ~1-3 staff.
Lastly, #2 was specifically ruled out in The announcement 5 days ago. MD has no intention of doing this. Sure, it challenges 5.1 in the chapter comment section, but stopping it would be, for reasons listed above, more detrimental. The last thing we need is chapter gaps bc group drama isn't allowed.
Lastly
[ul]
I would say that the poor speed that a group can perform an option is quite indicative of some of the current issues
[/ul]I already responded, but on a closer reading, I think I need someone to translate this portion of the post for me. I believe 'option' and 'indicative' are the wrong words. Rest of the paragraph may or may not need cleaning up. I have no clue how to interpret it atm.
Sory OP, but... I am pretty sure this is 100% off topic and unrelated to your post. How does speed of release have anything to do with the need for more comment section/cover page moderation? I can see how it can cause the problem in the comment section, and cause snipes, But I have absolutely no clue how the speed is indicative of the issue. Solving the speed of release problem will not make people be any less of a dick than they already are. And even series with same day releases get the occasional snipe. Almost with a gaurented group outrage reaction. Speed of release is a separate issue we have no control over. How often an unpaid scanlator wants to work on their illegal"legal gray area" (site official and on record stance on the mater) scanlations is entirely up to them. Snipe away if you have more free time on your hands.
The real issue, atm, IMO, is that people have different views on what is acceptable content (reason for the announcement), and are also either misinterpreting, disagreeing with, or never read the MD rules. If you are arguing for a different philosophy, I will say I am 100% against any per group/chapter based rules & moderation, Against cover page moderation bc its impossible unless we change core values that MD just announced it has no intention of changing.
Drama is super incredibly ambiguous and probably unrelated to MD rules, and honestly I don't think it is possible to stop that without removing comments entirely. The idea of being moderated by random groups based on 'tone' is horrifying.
I probably should have read this closer the first time, it gets more horrifying the further I go in. Hard NO for both of them for me now.
@zeen3 Your 1st idea is absolutely unacceptable! If you are scared of the comments then you should hide in some safe space, not use the internet.
2nd idea is much better.
My opinion on this matter is that MD shouldn't be policing any drama.
Let's say you are at school and had some issue with you fellow classmate that resulted in bigger drama. Then the government sends someone to resolve this drama for you and brand one of you guilty. I doubt the drama would be resolved that way, branded guilty person would probably resent the other person even more. Friends of the branded person would be angry at the governmet. Does this sounds like perfect solution to the issue? Both the scanlator group and their fans would post angry comments, tarnish the MD name and leave.
@zeen3
A variation of your suggestion was discussed here: https://mangadex.org/thread/91046
Ultimately, Group Leaders that we spoke to about giving them moderation powers were against the idea.
MangaDex does not believe in interfering with the content of a group's release, with the exception of the chapter being an obvious troll or if a credit page is excessively offensive. We have only removed one credit page to date. We do not state this lightly. We might put in place guidelines and enforce them, but that would lead down the slippery slope of policing scanlation. We don't feel it's our place or duty to be the gatekeepers of quality.
Drama within the scanlation community has existed long before MD came into existence and will exist long after we are gone. Personally speaking, I wouldn't have the energy or desire to moderate group drama.
@gomichandesu No, there shouldn't be such draconian rules on the credits page. If someone can't follow basic manners and attacks other people, it's a different thing, but what you are basically saying is that a group can't even take a panel from the same chapter and make a joke about it, or they can't try to recruit staff members on the credits page, or they can't inform the readers of a hiatus or any other relevant thing. In the end if the group is doing scanlation purely out of their goodwill, like they most of the time are, then the credits page can be basically they artistic outlet since they most of the time don't feel like messing with the actual pages of the manga. I greatly enjoy the jokes many groups occasionally crack on the credits page.
@kaarme
Eh, I wasn't exactly suggesting it should be like that, just that I wouldn't mind as a reader if it were like that due to this being such an issue (but it's really not an issue). Like I said, as long as there are outlets for the kind of stuff in other areas (IE, the comments) it wouldn't necessarily be taking away the scanslators right to make such things, just they'd have to put it in a different area if so many people are bothered by it. As for recruitment, that would be fine to keep in a chapter as usually recruitment pages are separate from "credits" pages anyway (which is why I didn't mention them.)
Again though, my phrasing was bad, I'm not even really advocating that be the rule, was just saying if the point of a "credits" page is to give credit then that would do the job just fine without everything else going on. What I would actually advocate though is credit pages having similar guidelines to comments. No actual blatant racism/sexism/whateverism's, illegal content, calls for violence, etc.
Both options are bad. Both in and of themselves and in their pedigree; not you specifically, @zeen3 , but in the sense that these are just the latest in a long line of people demanding that speech be censored and people's work be modified because a small minority of twits can't be arsed to adult up and walk away. I do not ascribe any of these negative descriptors to you personally, but that is how these things invariably play out.
#1, in my mind, needs hardly any discussion at all. Giving anybody, even moderators, the power to modify threads on a whim is foolish; i.e. many of the greatest cesspits of 4chan fame were created out of thin air exclusively because some mod decided to nuke threads out of irritation, and raw laws of averages dictates that if we open that door it will happen here.
#2, is one of those things where it sounds good in theory but is probably a waste of time and effort. I didn't work with that group for long, but my short time scanlating was insufferable because it seemed like every fourth worker was a thin-skinned ninny who thought that someone sniping a couple of chapters was the next holocaust. Trying to modify credits pages just to make them compliant with these new rules you're proposing would piss of the ninnies and likely drag things into a slow, grinding crawl if not a halt while they bitched and moaned. A fair few scanlator groups would probably stop posting here in response.
