Scanlation and Donations, and why it's not as simple as people think.

[Retard_]

So I've lately seen a lot of hate and sympathy from both readers and other scanlators towards groups that take donations and even though I'm not a scanlator personally anymore, I thought I'd try to discuss it a bit.

First of all let's talk about what kind of groups there are, since I believe that's the most important part about this, there's 4 main kinds of scanlation groups:

1. Groups that take donations and don't pay staff nor explain where any of the money goes.

2. Groups that take donations and pay staff and explain where funds go.

3. Groups that don't take donations because they don't need them.

4. Groups that don't take donations because they're against it.

Now let's discuss each one since I believe that'll help people understand why the opinion on donations can't be simple binary yes's or no's.

1. This type of group is the one you guys usually talk shit about or use as example to talk shit about the type 2 of groups. It's not complicated, they're trying to cash grab without much effort and obviously the quality/speed isn't up to par with type 2 since staff won't be as motivated. Usually the staff are teenagers that don't understand the value of their own time even if it's a hobby. A good example of this was old Trash Scanlations who lied about donation money usage and costs of raws and other costs.

2. Type 2 is pretty simple: They ask for money and put it back into scanlation. More specifically towards paying staff. Good examples are Mangacow or Meraki who were paying every translators that wanted to be paid 5-15$ per chapter. If you remember meraki at their peak they were getting over 1000USD per month on patreon, but that wasn't even enough to pay all translators since imagine there's 8 translators, putting out 20 chapters per month, each costs 10 bucks average, that ammounts to 1600USD. So the quality/speed of that type of group comes from somewhere, and that somewhere is the money invested into the staff. These usually work on popular series to try to get as many donations to cover costs.

3. There's also groups that don't take donations simply because they take scanlations more casually and have fewer staff that do it for fun, these groups usually work on niche series that otherwise nobody would work on. These are almost always passion projects and they do it out of love for the series and these people are commonly older scanlators with financial stability, at least based on the ones I've met, so they just don't try to monetize their time. A good example is LoktarOgar who works on "Out!" and "Bad Boys"

4. This type of group is similar to type 3 but they don't take donations not because they don't need it but simply because they're against it, these are the ones that are either super quiet or try to talk smack about the type 1-2 groups. They usually work on whatever series without any specific genre or popularity rating. They vary from really fast and/or consistent like Helvetica Scans to super slow and inconsistent where they release 2 chapters per year.

Now, if you've read what I tried to explain you might understand that just saying all donation-taking groups are bad or good is wrong, it's more nuanced than that.

I'd like to know your opinions about this, please let's discuss it below.

 

[deerafl]

i wholeheartedly supports type 2. Even if they have a policy to hold their release from agregator and their sites have ads
So many good manga that deserves a scanlation.
Scanlators need something to motivates them, and pride is not enough anymore

just my pov as a reader

 

[Retard_]

@deerafl totally agree, as long as they're as i said honest about how they're making money: aka not using cryptominers or shady shit on said websites and it's just safe ads it's meh.

The sad thing is people in this website seem to confuse type 1-2 and generalize 2 to talk shit about them when they feel like it.

 

[Holo]

The fact that it has become acceptable to pay TLs is one of the things puzzling me in scanlation. In the fansubbing scene (before legal streaming killed it off), paying TLs was virtually unheard of.

A similar analogy would be if I started paying the MangaDex devs and mods for their time - I wonder how controversial would this be?

 

[LowSanity]

@Retard_ I don't have opinion on this topics. I would love for the cash to be used to increase the quality and quantity of work but if ppl involved believe that their work require payment i have nothing against it. I will most likely not be the person they will recive donations from as i have my own business that needs to stay afloat and average monthly salary in my country is round 800$ after tax.
You may not like my answer but i believe it's up to the group. If i don't like what they are doing i will just leave. i already buy mangas that are easily available in my country or i will just find diferent group.
@Holo I do believe it would be controversial but i personally have nothing against it. Ppl can try whatever they want. Will it end up in dissaster, possibly.

 

[Teddy]

Nothing to add, but good breakdown summary

 

[Choco_Pudding]

I think you missed a type: groups that accept donations, but only put them towards buying raws and maintaining the group website. As far as I've seen, that's the most common type of donation-accepting group. Many shoujo scanlators take donations to go towards raws and hosting but do not pay their translators.

 

[goronyanpai]

More types of perspectives tend to lead to drama. More and more reminded that in the end we are still in the free reading zone unless you buy yourself to support the author through "first hand".
I think everything's back to the beginning. There is no definite answer that can justify both; what is right and wrong.

Type two is more ideal in my opinion. They are transparent and clear about their goals. Even though the results can be contrary by everyone's justice in the concept of "do not seek profit".
I sympathized with Hatigarm's case which ended up being officially hired because it is not entirely wrong.
See, this view can arise. You can even hire a translator if it goes along with your demands.

And better the fourth type, I'm interested in this part.
The fact is that people who spend time with something they like, simply want to share. This reminds me of Raff being the best example of this type. She/he is the generous person I have ever met on scanlator world.
I mean, she/he is the owner of Otakumole (it's a closed community where the scan won't be touched by many aggregator sites out there). What else? She/he bought the title of more than 50+ without raising donations. (I'm used to looking for raw online and I'm sure she/he bought it by own money).
That's good too, I think.

But I hope that we as free readers don't forget the original purpose of having fun and are not proud of reading illegally. It's silly.

 

[Rygdar]

What i find strange is how acceptable it has become for scan groups to profit and even live of the money they make from scanlation.
In the end it is still a highly illegal activity. They are using someone else's work, intellectual property, and illegally make money from it.
In the past it was a honorable thief situation, take nothing for yourself, often spend loads of your own money, and just spread the love of the medium with more people. And now it's a money making business for certain groups.

 

[LowSanity]

@Rygdar let's take other highly illegal stuff. At the begining humans used drugs to have spiritual experiences(example: Cannabis indica was burning at many hindu temples of the past). Some time have past and the demand for drugs increased. Now we have highly illegal and highly profitable drug business.
It's nothing new, that's how the market works. If there is greater demand then supply and ppl are willing to pay more then producers will start selling it for more even if it's illegal.

 

[wanko_wanko]

Get a job.

 

[Skcyte]

I just want to know what makes/drives group 1 and 2 to translate. I can see 2 as okay-ish group like I can see that you're trying to reward your staff and motivated them. but what makes you to do this in the first place? It's just to me they're trying to be a legit scanslation group but without the expenses of buying license to the IP and distribute them.

And I support the group that use their donations toward buying raws and paying hosting site.

 

[Pika]

@Choco_Pudding
Yeah, imo that's the most acceptable form of donations, since you're supporting the mangaka more than the group

 

[yldDavid]

Well I supported a few on patreon, but good thing they were listed in the bullshit news thread about the mass exodus. Saves me the monthly cost I'll just make sure to read their crap on some aggregator site that just rips them straight.

1. 2. I didn't really care where they spent it.

 

[sharkman]

Aggregator sites are gonna celebrate. Thank you.

 

[hotdogonnastick]

I think I'm at negative 50, maybe.

Edit: Jobs are nice.

 

[Orio]

Type 3 Lolitannia represent~

 

[Hounder]

@Holo I think part of it has to do with groups trying to make a name for themselves. Being able to put out chapters better and faster than other groups is a measure of pride for the scanlator groups, and to do this, they need great translators. The reality is while translators are becoming more common, GREAT translators are still rare. And one of the few ways they have of getting attention of the great ones is to offer pay. TL's are still human, and time spent translating is still time they could be spending doing something else, so being paid does offer an incentive. Same thing applies towards skilled re-drawers and other positions.

This is just an opinion, but I do think there is a serious measure of truth to it when I say that human greed and pride will always start appearing in what may be the simplest things. I personally don't have an issue with a group offsetting real costs of doing what they are doing, especially since they are operating in a grey area anyway. But, when it comes to true profit (anything past the actual costs needed), that starts going in the wrong direction, without real justification.

 

[dashii]

*Warning Long*
Objective View On How Scanlation and Donations became how it is

So I have been reading manga for quiet a long time, starting from when I was a 5th grader at a Borders (RIP) to discovering online manga translations (2006ish). Now that I gone beyond college and what not, the discussion about scanlation and donations (groups 1 + 2) has become a controversy or debate due to two reasons:
1) Time
2) Boom of the internet

Let me explain.
Manga online, back around 2006, did not have dedicated servers that support translators like mangadex or batoto (RIP) or even have nice translator websites. A couple of the translator websites back in the day were either just forum websites or very simple websites that didn't require much upkeep as they do today. There was no such thing as social media posts like facebook, Instagram, Reddit (yes it counts as one). It was myspace. Yahoo was a super popular search engine and youtube was super simple and great. But I digress.

As the world started becoming more adept at technology/programming, websites became more expensive to cover costs, online ads increased tremendously, and online payment websites grew way beyond than paypal (patreon, venmo, etc.). Additionally, manga and anime's interest grew tremendously over the years. With a wider audience and more interconnections of the internet, the demand of reading on online manga has become huge.

A new generation of readers and scanlations is here. As a result, scanlation groups would use payment websites/donations and/or paid translators to quickly translate manga on a weekly basis. Back in the day, I literally had to wait 1-2 years before I noticed that a manga had updated 1 chapter. The rate of manga translation has definitely increased. So supply and demand has caused this weird zone of translations asking for donations and translating manga.

However there is a catch.../b]
We need to remember that reading online manga is actually an illegal activity or in a grey area zone. The only reason scanlations were a thing is because there was no english translations or manga availability for many different type of manga on the internet. The translators and translation groups that worked on manga did it for fun and usually not for any payment (groups 3 +4). Additionally they only translated manga that they were interested in without the public's opinion (asking for translations). The old translators were the true heroes of the online manga translation team, and I greatly appreciate those groups and the translation teams of the past RIP stiletto heel).

Paying translators/staff or having scheduled translated releases were not a thing in the past, but the increase in public interest in manga and online manga has changed the once quiet, for fun scanlation times of the past...

Personal Opinion

I personally am a fan of groups 3 and groups 4 specifically cause I really respect the time and effort that they have done (letting them release whenever they have the time and whatever manga they are interested in). To be honest, I still don't like the idea of group 2 because translating manga becomes more than a hobby of translation (I don't consider getting payed to do a hobby is an actual hobby). Unfortunately it is not realistic to not have group 2 because the demand for manga translation is high/website maintenance and the way new translation groups have asked for donations nowadays is a thing we can't personally stop.

Here are my 2 cents overall and a little warning. Having money involved in scanslation changes scanlations into something where people feel entitled to always have a manga translated on time and/or have manga translation requests... If scanlation groups want to have donations to cover costs they can, but I just feel that its wrong to get payed/donations for someone's else work overall. (However, I really dislike the scanlation groups (that are being paid) who feel entitled to a manga, like they own it and cause drama...)

 

[Vadon]

Number 2 is actually the worst type of scanlators even if they are the most productive out of everyone else. It actually involves individuals profiting off manga where they don't have the rights to. Donations are fine as long they are not connected to an illegal activity. Donations for number 1 is fine even if they are an immoral group of scanlators, since the funds raised could be used for literally anything and the donators were promised nothing in return. However the donations in number 2 can be linked to an illegal activity and in this case it's Meraki using its donations to pay translators per translation where they don't have the rights to.
So in number 2's case there are actually individuals profiting from an illegal activity like the translators that gets payed per translation and Meraki is facilitating it and so Meraki is also in the wrong even if they don't make any profit themselves.

Scanlating is a grey area, but do you know what a grey area actually is? A grey area is a way some people justify something that is blatantly wrong/ illegal, but is tolerated by the right holders and authorities since they don't care enough. They don't care because profits are not made and there's nothing to pluck.

In short number 1 is potentially wrong since nobody knows what they do with their donations and nobody but themselves really knows if they are profiting from an illegal activity (Chances are high that they do if they receive large amounts). In number 2's case it is a confirmed fact that individuals are profiting from an illegal activity.

Personally I do prefer number 2 if that means I get to read more of my favorite manga, but don't pretend that anything in the grey area where money is involved is a righteous business.