Petition to remove ecchi tag from 5-Toubon no Hanayome (non-spoiler)

[DANDAN_THE_DANDAN]

Sixty-six great chapters has been released thus far and I have been enjoying them all. However, one thing still bothers me and that is the very existence of the ecchi tag in this manga. My argument is that the ecchi tag is unnecessary and will not mislead new viewers at all. Yes, the one-shot features obvious ecchi scenes but this is ultimately not part of the series but rather a mere precursor. Ibelieve that the manga tag should be removed for it does not represent an attribute of the series as a whole in any way.

There has been plenty of occasions throughout the chapters where there are so many possibilities for an ecchi scene: at the beginning when Miku takes off her stockings ends up relatively tame; that time when Yotsuba's panties *not worn* was censored with her head; basically the entirety of Scrambled Eggs arc; and yet Negi has been seemingly avoiding any possibilities of ecchiness on purpose. If he really wanted this to be ecchi, then why would he rewrites the entire one-shot into chapter one with literally all of its ecchi removed? If it is against the mangaka's will for this ecchi classification, at least according to our own interpretations, wouldn't that mean that the ecchi tag is, in a way, sort of insulting?

As for the ecchi nature of the one-shot, I recommend inserting a paragraph at the end of the manga's description that is something amongst the lines of the following, few sentences.

While the series itself is not sufficient enough to be labeled as "ecchi", the one-shot, however, clearly is. But keep in mind that the one-shot has already been rewritten into chapter one with cleaner, better drawings, a more defined story structure, and all its ecchi content removed.

Yes, I advocate for this paragraph in order to avoid unfortunate misunderstandings, such a case is as linked.

This is the end of my argument. If you disagree with my opinion, please tell me why. Perhaps we could reach an agreed-upon conclusion, plus I like debates.

P.s. Keep this thread alone spoiler-free plz. If you have to, use the

Spoiler

tags. Thx.

Poll will be open for 28 days since I just scrolled down far enough to discover that 7 is not the max limit for polls. Thought that was weird since it's too short of a limit...

Edit: Um... that middle one... is for, uh... aesthetics. Yes.

 

[421cookies]

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm?

Spoiler

 

[DANDAN_THE_DANDAN]

@421cookies shush...

Spoiler

To be fair, that could've been much more ecchi

 

[FireFish5000]

Sorry my dear bath loli, but it has been echi enough to deserve the tag. Unfortunately, even though our isekai characters home world is only mentioned in ch1, the isekai tag stays with it through ch100 and beyond. While not frequent now, we do get occasional echi sceens.

I distinctly remember sleeping naked, and walking in on girls changing. That may have happened in the manga too, my memory is fuzzy. It's hard to remember when all their cloths evaporate from the smallest of compliments.

 

[makotochin96]

Me, No. Simply because it's there, and very provocative at it.

Spoiler

. Ya' be warned :3

 

[DANDAN_THE_DANDAN]

@421cookies @firefish5000 @makotochin96 Very good argument, but here is mine.

MAL, Livechart.me, Kitsu, and Anime Planet all do not feature ecchi in their genres list. While I did found that Manga Updates and Anilist do have it, it is a mere two compared to four and my argument remains. If the majority contains the same opinion, doesn't that make it more likely for said opinion is universal and commonly-accepted?

If anyone else has a major go-to anime site please link it here. I can't think of any other reliable sites.

And to add on my point, your examples can be classified as fanservice rather than explicit ecchi scenes.

 

[421cookies]

@makotochin96 "That's hot. Nhentai numbers?"
@DANDAN And so what I'd say if I don't know this manga.

 

[FireFish5000]

@DANDAN_THE_DANDAN
I don't use most of those sites, but as far as I can tell,
kitsu.io does not even have an ecchi tag.
livechart.me is a anime only db
Anime planet does have it properly marked as ecchi (link to manga page)

Making this 3 against 1 in favor of ecchi. Wait.... 4 against 1 if we add mangadex into this mix

Lastly, yes, that is fanservice, but ecchi and fanservice are not mutually exclusive. This is ECCHI FANSERVICE And without it, I probably wouldn't have kept on reading!
_{Actually, I have had this on hold for a few months.... Ecchi scenes, awkward conversations (at night), and not studying are about all I can remember. Might be mixing it up with another tutoring manga}

 

[buttsaggington]

Amusing to notice this thread as i woke up and see my own moderation being referenced for this decision.

 

[makotochin96]

@421cookies : Despite rule 34, haven't found anything. Maybe when its anime adaptation airing we might. ?

 

[421cookies]

Jesus Christ, the OP is godlike

 

[DANDAN_THE_DANDAN]

I like how people still voted for the empty middle choice.

Imma keep this debate going cause it's fun.

@buttsaggington I guess you could go by that classification, however let us take a look at... literally all shounen. When shounen shows their fanservice, those scenes contain scenes which, combined with @firefish5000 stated, can be called as "light ecchi fanservice". But I don't see any ecchi tag. And what are one of the tags for 5 Toubon both manga and anime on Anime Planet?

Shounen.

And as far as I can tell, all four (five if you count firefish5000's link) as well as Manga Updates contain the shounen tag.

Most shounen classifies "light ecchi" as fanservice, if they do have fanservice. Those scenes also are not the primary attraction of the story but rather a little extra. Compare any ecchi anime with any shounen anime and you can immidietely tell the difference between ecchi and fanservice.

Shouldn't it be fair game if one decides to or not to label a craft "ecchi" based on the shounen way of judging? A fine line lies between fanservice and "true" ecchi and I believe that this should be tagged as fanservice rather than ecchi.

@monka188 I want more peeps in here. As the one who releases the chapters for 5 Toubon, what's your opinion about this?

 

[FireFish5000]

@DANDAN_THE_DANDAN I wrote a super long reply and then my browser crashed (what I get for running nightly builds and not saving my work). So, rather than retyping everything in full complete sentences, I will give the gist of my arguments the points I was trying to make(not many of them were arguments imo) without any backing descriptions nor bothering 2 spell words correctly.

1) Fanservice is NOT a genre, and thus does not compete with ecchi. Thus, they are not mutually exclusive. You can find several threads in the sites you linked that conclude ecchi is a genre, and fanservice is not on some of the sites you linked (google "ecchi vs fanservice". The first 3 links I had clicked came to that conclusion and mentioned it being a common question). I believe you know this, but this brings us to the next problem.
2) You could argue fanservice does not contribute 2 the genre, but you could just as easily say it does. This is a hard argument to come to a conclusion on. It is well established that fanservice doesn't contribute to plot(at least from other forms I have read that I wont bother linking), but I don't believe that plot is the only thing defining a genre. In the end, the question boils down to the boundaries and/or definition of genre, which is something I honestly don't want to research.
3) By my personal standard, genres are the primary reoccurring themes. A good rule of thumb imo is that any theme occurring in multiple chapters of every volume is part of the genre. This is by no means definitive, but I believe it is a good baseline. As this fanservice is a reoccurring theme which occurred often enough that they popped in my head the second I saw this pole, I believe ecchi is part of the genre.
4) As a side note, since this is a manga site, please try to keep your references in reference to manga. Manga and anime community are nearly identical, but still, being consistent never hurts.

As a question for you, at what point do you believe ecchi becomes a genre? For example,
Our lucky perv MC goes to 6 different girls rooms in 6 different manga:

Girl 1 is but naked. She shrieks and slams the door. Their relationship remains unfazed and they proceed as if the incident never happened, without it ever being mentioned again or her even blushing in embarrassment in the next panel.
Girl 2 is but naked. She shrieks and slams the door. Their relationship remains unfazed, but she blushes in embarrassment directly after and gets mad a few chapters later when the MC brings it up again.
Girl 3 is but naked. She shrieks and slams the door. Their relationship changes as she becomes more aware that he is a man. She blushes in embarrassment directly after and gets mad a few chapters later when the MC brings it up again.

Girl 4 is but naked. She shrieks and slams the door. Their relationship remains unfazed and they proceed as if the incident never happened, without it ever being mentioned again or her even blushing in embarrassment in the next panel. This incident reoccurs every 9 chapters with the same or different girl.
Girl 5 is but naked. She shrieks and slams the door. Their relationship remains unfazed, but she blushes in embarrassment directly after and gets mad a few chapters later when the MC brings it up again. This incident reoccurs every 9 chapters with the same or different girl.
Girl 6 is but naked. She shrieks and slams the door. Their relationship changes as she becomes more aware that he is a man. She blushes in embarrassment directly after and gets mad a few chapters later when the MC brings it up again. This incident reoccurs every 9 chapters with the same or different girl.

In m opinion, girl 4-6 are in an echi manga(and a low rated one at that). Girl 1 and 2 is fanservice, and Girl 3 is not fanservice (bc it contributes to the story), but has no indication of being an ecchi genre with that alone. Just an ecchi scene in a potentially non-ecchi manga.

And yes, this is an incredibly short reply compared to what I had written....

 

[totallynotmike]

...and here i thought that last letter game thread was the most pointless one here. Oh well, carry on community.

 

[buttsaggington]

@firefish5000 covered most of what i would say, if i wasn't too lazy to do so.

@DANDAN_THE_DANDAN Im guessing you went on about fanservice in your reply to me because i said "Compared to series that are pretty extreme in their fanservice", to be honest i didnt want to say fanservice there and was trying to avoid mentioning it entirely in my post for the reasons firefish mentioned but saying "Compared to series that are pretty extreme in their Ecchi" didnt sound right to say so i gave up and wrote that instead at 5am in the morning.

Though to respond to what firefish didnt cover.
I'd say trying to connect a demographic with a genre isn't the right way to go about thinking about this. Genres tend to go hand in hand half the time but demographics dont. The demographic is a guideline of who the target audience is aimed at. Which most sites (?) add based on the Magazine's target audience a manga is released in. In general you should only take demographics as a pinch of salt as they are only accurate most of the time and usually decided by some random guy like you if the magazine doesn't have one. Theres some manga that disregard the demographic of the magazine they run in entirely, such as that Attack on Titan spinoff Manga that was released in a Shoujo Magazine. Can confirm, it was not very Shoujo-y. ;P

TLTR: Demographics and Genres shouldn't be based off or considered together when deciding if a genre applies. Demographics are merely guidelines for what the content is aimed at, and is not always accurate as its up to the Author to decide.

Disclaimer: I am only speaking for myself, not as a moderator of anime-planet. So view it as my opinion not that of AP. I only make such posts on the AP forum, and will only discuss AP decisions on the AP forum.

 

[DANDAN_THE_DANDAN]

Oh shoot, I accidentally opened up two cans of worms... Welp, this is gonna be interesting and fun. Let's see if I can turn the table back once more.


@mikegnesium I will find a way to one-up this if not, someone will. Have my words. If you don't mind, can you join in as well?


@firefish5000

I wrote a super long reply and then my browser crashed

I am very sorry for your loss.

1) Fanservice is NOT a genre, and thus does not compete with ecchi. Thus, they are not mutually exclusive. You can find several threads in the sites you linked that conclude ecchi is a genre, and fanservice is not on some of the sites you linked.

As a question for you, at what point do you believe ecchi becomes a genre?

Sorry for making it unclear but I never proclaimed that fanservice is a genre. I was attempting to convince you that the ecchi scenes in 5 Toubon are insufficient to make the series itself be called "ecchi" and an alternative solution to my proposed problem that simultaneously aligns with my opinion is that those scenes are fanservice. I say so because the ecchi content of 5 Toubon is not its main attraction and a mere extra, similar to the structure of fanservice in other familiar shounen series with fanservice.

2) You could argue fanservice does not contribute 2 the genre, but you could just as easily say it does. This is a hard argument to come to a conclusion on.

And that's what we're debating about - to reach an agreeable conclusion

It is well established that fanservice doesn't contribute to plot(at least from other forms I have read that I wont bother linking),

Hey! You agree with me! (^o^)

but I don't believe that plot is the only thing defining a genre. In the end, the question boils down to the boundaries and/or definition of genre, which is something I honestly don't want to research.

For the sake of the argument, let's follow google's definition of a genre. a category of artistic composition, as in music or literature, characterized by similarities in form, style, or subject matter. It's not really what I'm arguing for so I'll leave these things here.

(I feel like I meed to quote this to approve your hard work)

In m opinion, girl 4-6 are in an echi manga(and a low rated one at that). Girl 1 and 2 is fanservice, and Girl 3 is not fanservice (bc it contributes to the story), but has no indication of being an ecchi genre with that alone. Just an ecchi scene in a potentially non-ecchi manga.

I'm not really debating about fanservice v.s. ecchi but rather the existence of the ecchi tag for this manga so let's not reopen this can of worms. But if you want my opinion, it's here anyway.

I disagree with 3 because, by my definition, that scene is not the main appeal of the story itself however its existence still proves otherwise. Basically,

(My definition)
No ecchi scene, not main appeal = not ecchi genre, no fanservice
Ecchi scene, not main appeal = not ecchi genre, yes fanservice
Ecchi scene, main appeal = yes ecchi genre

And yes, this is an incredibly short reply compared to what I had written....

I've been there before and I feel your sorrows and pain. F.

P.s. I edited a few things after reading your early reply


@buttsaggington And here's the second can.

I'd say trying to connect a demographic with a genre isn't the right way to go about thinking about this. Genres tend to go hand in hand half the time but demographics dont.

I wasn't trying to connect genres with demographics in the first place but it looks like I accidentally did.

In my previous argument, I was claiming that the ecchi scenes are insufficient for an ecchi tag and reached the conclusion that they are fanservice instead of ecchi. The thing with this is that I needed evidence and so I compared this shounen manga with other shounen stories (the demographics are to thin down as many variables as possible for an attempt at fair comparison). For clarification, let's look at the "fanservice" of Grand Blue (which is comedy). If firefish5000's definition of ecchi as fanservice/genre stands true then Grand Blue should be recognized as a comedy-ecchi anime but we know that this is just not true.

With my definition, those sexy scenes can be classified as "fanservice" because they are not the main appeal of the narrative but rather a pleasant extra.

I have not finished writing this but I have to leave so I'm saving my work by basically submitting this reply first and editing it again later.

Officially done

 

[FireFish5000]

@DANDAN_THE_DANDAN

I have not finished writing this but I have to leave so I'm saving my work by basically submitting this reply first and editing it again later.

Even if you get in a lot of edit wars bc of this, never do otherwise! You write too many walls of text to not save your work!

And I did realize that your were not trying to debate fanservice as a genre, but as I could easily envision someone going down that route (bc google shows they have) and the wording seemed like it may lead others down that route. I was merely trying to catch those people and pull them back to the main point, which is what contributes to the genre?

Your reply under "(My definition)" that you currently have put in the spoiler is honestly what I believe to be the most important part of the argument. It contains the most subjective part of the problem (even if there is a correct definition, I believe most people here will have their own opinions on it), uses a subjective answer (moreso than mine, but no one said the definition should have an objective answer), and its also where you and I really disagree.

I was planning to give a longer reply, but I also need time to sort out my thoughts, so I will wait for you to finish before coming back (maybe a few days since I am not sure how busy I will be).

 

[421cookies]

Look how lengthy this thread becomes.
Also, have I shared Itsuki's introduction today?

 

[DANDAN_THE_DANDAN]

Can we all take a moment to pause and appreciate how many words that this thread has reached in just about 24 hours?

@firefish5000 Yeah, my bad for throwing readers off. Miswording...

@421cookies Keep up the good work

 

[Hoanghoiham]

So, I hope I could jump in with my thoughts from a literature point of view. I always felt like there is a line between "ecchi as a neccessary plot device" and "ecchi as an unneccessary add-on".

Take Kuzu no Honkai for example. As much as I dislike it for the terrible plot, that manga demonstrated how ecchi scenes can be a crucial part of the plot: they define the character personalities and relationships, show how the girl dislike the female teacher and how childish she was and how far she went to "get back" at the teacher, how the female teacher was controlling and dominating in a social way, how the relationship between the girl and the boy progresses, and so on. Touching, kissing, and intercourse moments served as clear proof of how far character wished to go, how they felt, how they thought. Now, by replacing intercourse scenes and touching scenes with plain kissing and hand-holding would absolutely reduce the impact of said feelings and thoughts as well as the clarity of character traits and progression. In this case, even if sexual activities are in present, I would not consider this "fan-service" from a literature point of view, unrelated to whether if ecchiness is the main selling point / point of attraction or not.

On the end of the spectrum, we have Yuuna's inn aka unlimited ecchi works. The loadtons of complete nudes, body armor with less protection than a human hair, sexually intense situation, accidental boobs grabbing, accidental face sitting, accidental 69, etc. contributed absolutely nothing. They did not, and I suspect will not, shows anything in term of plot, character progression, character emotions, morals, tension, conflicts, solution of said conflicts, foreshadowing, misinterpreting of character, imagery, or anything else. All the ecchi acts are simply there to lure in male readers without, at least to my knowledge, any literary use whatsoever. Take out the ecchi element and we are left with a plain harem/action/comedy manga with all it's plot and valuables intact, less actractive but not any less complete as a story. Thus, fanservice, regardless of whether if it is the only / main reason people read and like this manga.

In that sense, let's take a look at 5toubun's skin-revealing, nude-seeing, bathing, giant-boob-in-the-face sitting, upskirt-looking scenes and how they contributed to the plot and naration. Nothing. Those scenes did not add to character relationship, traits, conflicts or anything else naration-related. As far as a literature work of fiction go, these ecchi scenes (arguably according to Dandan) added nothing to the plot, and could have not been there without disrupting or interfering with the story at it is now at all.

In that context, I still would like to point out that in 5toubun, the aforementioned scenes are not part of the narration but rather part of the artistic style. The skin-revealing situations were simply visuals, and not a part of the chain of action that constituted the plot and timeline. Changing ecchi to non-ecchi would simply be a matter of redrawing, not rewritting. Unlike in Yuuna's love hotel, there exist no "ecchi action" within the timeline progression such as "the ninja girl falls in a scientifically and statistically impossible way and her naked p*ssy landed on protag's face"; 5toubun's ecchiness are merely "the headphone girl is depicted in a way that her nipples are almost falling out of her clothes" regardless of and independent from the action in place.

In conclusion, in my opinion, 5toubun have some ecchiness in term of skin revealing and character images, said visuals are purely for the purpose of fanservice instead of being a crucial part of the plot, and is more of a choice of art style rather than a part of the events and actions taking place.