JK Goddess and Yuruyuru TS Life!
- Thread starter MangaDex
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School girl, slice of life. I'm not feeling any stirring, don't lie to me.
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ahh a goddess with a fetish
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Just once it'd be interesting if the MC didn't particularly have an issue with being turned into a girl.
I mean, this kind of genre is aimed at people with gender dysphoria, right? Doesn't make too much sense that EVERY SINGLE genderswap MC out there always protests being turned...
I mean, this kind of genre is aimed at people with gender dysphoria, right? Doesn't make too much sense that EVERY SINGLE genderswap MC out there always protests being turned...
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@PaterFrog
I've seen titles that do that and they tend to get boring too fast. Most of them are already over by the first chapter because they really have nothing to explore other than, well, buying girl's clothes and stuff.
Also, this genre (or more specifically, the Japanese TSF niche) isn't really specifically aimed at people with gender dysphoria, at least not in the western sense. It's more fetishistic than anything, and it turns out that people who are into it are also really into feminization.
I've seen titles that do that and they tend to get boring too fast. Most of them are already over by the first chapter because they really have nothing to explore other than, well, buying girl's clothes and stuff.
Also, this genre (or more specifically, the Japanese TSF niche) isn't really specifically aimed at people with gender dysphoria, at least not in the western sense. It's more fetishistic than anything, and it turns out that people who are into it are also really into feminization.
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@PaterFrog:
Indeed, it does happen. This one comes to mind from recent titles (where the job of freaking out is relegated to everyone around the protagonist instead, and in fact it turns out that that's even more tiresome).
I seem to recall Kashimashi started with the protagonist being hesitant but pretty neutral about being turned into a girl, but for other reasons I don't have a very high opinion of Kashimashi. And I vaguely recall some trashy ecchi series have started with the protagonist being... *ahem* more than a bit enthusiastic.
And I can remember exactly one title (a shoujo of some sort, I think) which basically ended with both the protagonist and her love interest freewheeling between genders and deciding between themselves that that was probably fine anyway in a quite laid-back, and quite wholesome and heartwarming conclusion... which I can't remember the title of and have never found again.
The stuff that takes trans stuff seriously that I've seen in manga falls mostly into three categories: High-tension dramas depicting gender dysphoria and its associated trials and tribulations, gentle and/or artistic stuff trying earnestly to raise these issues in a society in which it can be quite difficult to break the mold, and (semi-)auto-biographical works. Casually inserting real trans issues into pure entertainment stuff is... still quite rare, I think? And there definitely isn't a marketable audience of people with gender dysphoria in Japan, for entertainment media like this, I think.
On the other hand maybe the slow move towards internet publishing will change that a bit over time? Authors without editors can sell things that editors wouldn't think "has an audience", after all.
Indeed, it does happen. This one comes to mind from recent titles (where the job of freaking out is relegated to everyone around the protagonist instead, and in fact it turns out that that's even more tiresome).
I seem to recall Kashimashi started with the protagonist being hesitant but pretty neutral about being turned into a girl, but for other reasons I don't have a very high opinion of Kashimashi. And I vaguely recall some trashy ecchi series have started with the protagonist being... *ahem* more than a bit enthusiastic.
And I can remember exactly one title (a shoujo of some sort, I think) which basically ended with both the protagonist and her love interest freewheeling between genders and deciding between themselves that that was probably fine anyway in a quite laid-back, and quite wholesome and heartwarming conclusion... which I can't remember the title of and have never found again.
* * *
But... as Nylodale said, none of that's to do much with actual transgender subjects or audiences. Certainly, this series isn't concerned with that, by all appearances. Some other stuff does take the gender issues it raises seriously, and to that extent does involve gender identity a bit, but usually won't go so far as to get into transgender issues as such, at least not recognisably.The stuff that takes trans stuff seriously that I've seen in manga falls mostly into three categories: High-tension dramas depicting gender dysphoria and its associated trials and tribulations, gentle and/or artistic stuff trying earnestly to raise these issues in a society in which it can be quite difficult to break the mold, and (semi-)auto-biographical works. Casually inserting real trans issues into pure entertainment stuff is... still quite rare, I think? And there definitely isn't a marketable audience of people with gender dysphoria in Japan, for entertainment media like this, I think.
On the other hand maybe the slow move towards internet publishing will change that a bit over time? Authors without editors can sell things that editors wouldn't think "has an audience", after all.
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@Nylodale @Pokari
Thank you for your answers. I wish to specify that I did not necessarily talk about transgender people, but simply people who experience gender dysphoria (to varying degrees, though I failed to mention that). Severe gender dysphoria can certainly cause you to go far enough to consider yourself transgendered, including the actual physical stuff, but that is actually pretty uncommon.
Most people have at some point or other honestly wished that they were the other gender. Even if you never go so far as to seriously consider yourself other, the unhappiness of being what you are is still there, frequently or not. And that describes, as far as I know, the largest swath of people who might show any interest in genderswap stories.
Regarding the quality of those works I gotta ask, do you think they would have been any less boring if they had stuck harder to the stereotypes of the turned person being the tsukkomi in a world of boke? Is it that having an indifferent or even happy MC removes too many possibilities so that it makes telling the story difficult, or was the execution actually so bad in those few stories that it threw a shadow on the idea itself?
Thank you for your answers. I wish to specify that I did not necessarily talk about transgender people, but simply people who experience gender dysphoria (to varying degrees, though I failed to mention that). Severe gender dysphoria can certainly cause you to go far enough to consider yourself transgendered, including the actual physical stuff, but that is actually pretty uncommon.
Most people have at some point or other honestly wished that they were the other gender. Even if you never go so far as to seriously consider yourself other, the unhappiness of being what you are is still there, frequently or not. And that describes, as far as I know, the largest swath of people who might show any interest in genderswap stories.
Regarding the quality of those works I gotta ask, do you think they would have been any less boring if they had stuck harder to the stereotypes of the turned person being the tsukkomi in a world of boke? Is it that having an indifferent or even happy MC removes too many possibilities so that it makes telling the story difficult, or was the execution actually so bad in those few stories that it threw a shadow on the idea itself?
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@PaterFrog:
In that case I do beleive gender dysphoria is (at least formally speaking) the wrong word for what you want to express; "Gender Dysphoria" was made up specifically as a clinical term (as a less-judgmental replacement for "Gender Identity Disorder") for a certain class of cases. And to quote Wikipedia quoting someone else:
On the literary side, I also can mostly only give the same facile answer: That it's easier to have conflict in a work where the protagonist is unhappy with their situation; without that, what is the conflict? And a story where the character has no mixed feelings about such a change would risk seeming overly simplistic to the casual reader.
Well, I suppose to some extent it might also be that authors might fear that having the protagonist accept their transformation too easily, might alienate the part of the audience that isn't fully on board with this whole gender changing thing yet. Or similarly, that straightforwardly implying or agreeing that we should be okay with it, involves a greater social risk in putting yourself out there, as opposed to just saying, "Hey, I wrote this funny and weird thing", which one can hide behind if one runs into an old-fashioned and closed-minded person and doesn't want things to be awkward.
In that case I do beleive gender dysphoria is (at least formally speaking) the wrong word for what you want to express; "Gender Dysphoria" was made up specifically as a clinical term (as a less-judgmental replacement for "Gender Identity Disorder") for a certain class of cases. And to quote Wikipedia quoting someone else:
(That's not to contradict anything else you were saying; it's just the wrong term.)
On the literary side, I also can mostly only give the same facile answer: That it's easier to have conflict in a work where the protagonist is unhappy with their situation; without that, what is the conflict? And a story where the character has no mixed feelings about such a change would risk seeming overly simplistic to the casual reader.
Well, I suppose to some extent it might also be that authors might fear that having the protagonist accept their transformation too easily, might alienate the part of the audience that isn't fully on board with this whole gender changing thing yet. Or similarly, that straightforwardly implying or agreeing that we should be okay with it, involves a greater social risk in putting yourself out there, as opposed to just saying, "Hey, I wrote this funny and weird thing", which one can hide behind if one runs into an old-fashioned and closed-minded person and doesn't want things to be awkward.
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@Pokari
Ah, I was thinking less in medical definitions, but rather the literal ones, "dysphoria" as opposed to "euphoria", which to me simply means an at least notable sadness regarding the own gender, that if strongly experienced could be so powerful that thinking of it as mere sadness would be insufficient.
But yes, if you go by the medical definition, gender dysphoria would certainly be too specific a term for what I mean.
I could think of plenty of struggles that don't require you to have to be unhappy at all with changing genders. Life for women is (except for pregnancy) as a whole freer of consequences for their actions, which can lead to issues with fulfillment. There is, of course, the matter of the period which one couldn't quite be adequately prepared for, or what about the near-constant low-key pain of a growing bosom or the bright shards it turns into occasionally? There are many more easy ones I could think of, but I've already been awake for far too long. It's 5 in the morning here.
If the topic's still interesting to you, we could discuss it more.
Ah, I was thinking less in medical definitions, but rather the literal ones, "dysphoria" as opposed to "euphoria", which to me simply means an at least notable sadness regarding the own gender, that if strongly experienced could be so powerful that thinking of it as mere sadness would be insufficient.
But yes, if you go by the medical definition, gender dysphoria would certainly be too specific a term for what I mean.
I could think of plenty of struggles that don't require you to have to be unhappy at all with changing genders. Life for women is (except for pregnancy) as a whole freer of consequences for their actions, which can lead to issues with fulfillment. There is, of course, the matter of the period which one couldn't quite be adequately prepared for, or what about the near-constant low-key pain of a growing bosom or the bright shards it turns into occasionally? There are many more easy ones I could think of, but I've already been awake for far too long. It's 5 in the morning here.
If the topic's still interesting to you, we could discuss it more.
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@PaterFrog I have the exact opposite feeling. I grow extremely weary of protagonists that lack any sense of an identity crisis or who get over it in a single chapter. In so many of the manga I've read, they mostly just have the cliche "oh noes I have boobies and my thang in GONE" reaction only to immediately follow it up with an "Oh well, it can't be helped" and that's literally the end of it. A small section of them will drag out the protagonist fronting about wanting to go back but that too seems completely hollow and rapidly disappears. Rarely, do they show a sincere desire to return for longer than a few chapters and even more rarely do they actually return to their original gender. I don't think I've ever seen a protagonist experience anything resembling a true identity crisis over having their gender flipped. I've seen more sincere reactions in manga about a protagonist who has their face hideously scarred or otherwise made unrecognizable.
In most gender swap scenarios, there is so little reaction to the gender swap that it leaves you questioning why it was ever part of the story. More often than not, in those cases it's simply used as an excuse to make a female protagonist that acts like a man child without shattering our suspension of disbelief too hard. Yet, they always take it way too far and shatter our suspension of disbelief anyways.
I'd like to just once see a manga where the protagonist is gender flipped, finds out it's impossible to undo, completely emotionally shuts down over it and then has to slowly come to terms with it and doesn't just treat it as a "oh well, I might as well enjoy it" scenario. That said, I can almost guarantee that if I did see something like this, they'd take it way too far and turn the character into some emo edgelord over it, since there's no such thing as moderate or realistic reactions in manga. It's like how most reactions to character deaths tend to be either of the "too bad, so sad" variety or the screaming man child variety like Simone from Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann. Neither of those reactions are what I'd call even remotely realistic. While Simone's reaction could have been called realistic since children crying loudly over a death is a thing that happens, they really took it way too over the top in his case. It'd be different if it was of the "I'm too deep into shock to actually react to this person's death but later I'm going to suddenly break down and cry and not know why" variety but they just straight up don't even react to most character deaths. I really can't fathom how character reactions in general are becoming so far removed from reality but it seems to just get worse with every passing year as authors try harder and harder to milk reactions out of the audience with fake overly dramatic characterizations or being lazy and just skipping it entirely. To be fair, I feel like authors in general have less and less skill at writing as the years go by and the ones who proved they are skilled either aren't really trying anymore or are outright retired/dead.
I get that you think there's plenty of things you can write about aside from the emotional adjustment to having your gender flipped but they're nearly all exceedingly minor, most have been abundantly explored already and you're really not going to get much of interest to read out of it. Sure, if you've never heard of the physical differences between genders, you might find it mildly interesting the first time you read it but you could literally just read a wiki about it and learn more than any manga will likely teach. All in all, there's little about gender bending that's more interesting than the emotional reactions people can have but it takes a skilled author to show those reactions without making it tedious and most authors just aren't that skilled. Hence, why most skip doing anything interesting at all and just use it as a prop for some comedy routine or to fulfill some fetish or wish fulfillment.
As for this manga in particular, the protagonist's reaction to being gender flipped is fairly weak. If there's ever a chapter 2, I'd be surprised if he even acts bothered by it anymore and doesn't just go with the flow. He, like so many in this genre, is getting straight railroaded into life as a girl and will inevitably give up and stop caring about it before long. This is definitely not the kind of manga you can read with your critical thinking enabled but that's the case with like 99.9999999% of manga. Yes, I did just say you can only take about 1 in a million manga seriously and this isn't the one. I can't really say much about the manga since there's only one chapter. What I can say is there's nothing here I haven't seen dozens of times before.
In most gender swap scenarios, there is so little reaction to the gender swap that it leaves you questioning why it was ever part of the story. More often than not, in those cases it's simply used as an excuse to make a female protagonist that acts like a man child without shattering our suspension of disbelief too hard. Yet, they always take it way too far and shatter our suspension of disbelief anyways.
I'd like to just once see a manga where the protagonist is gender flipped, finds out it's impossible to undo, completely emotionally shuts down over it and then has to slowly come to terms with it and doesn't just treat it as a "oh well, I might as well enjoy it" scenario. That said, I can almost guarantee that if I did see something like this, they'd take it way too far and turn the character into some emo edgelord over it, since there's no such thing as moderate or realistic reactions in manga. It's like how most reactions to character deaths tend to be either of the "too bad, so sad" variety or the screaming man child variety like Simone from Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann. Neither of those reactions are what I'd call even remotely realistic. While Simone's reaction could have been called realistic since children crying loudly over a death is a thing that happens, they really took it way too over the top in his case. It'd be different if it was of the "I'm too deep into shock to actually react to this person's death but later I'm going to suddenly break down and cry and not know why" variety but they just straight up don't even react to most character deaths. I really can't fathom how character reactions in general are becoming so far removed from reality but it seems to just get worse with every passing year as authors try harder and harder to milk reactions out of the audience with fake overly dramatic characterizations or being lazy and just skipping it entirely. To be fair, I feel like authors in general have less and less skill at writing as the years go by and the ones who proved they are skilled either aren't really trying anymore or are outright retired/dead.
I get that you think there's plenty of things you can write about aside from the emotional adjustment to having your gender flipped but they're nearly all exceedingly minor, most have been abundantly explored already and you're really not going to get much of interest to read out of it. Sure, if you've never heard of the physical differences between genders, you might find it mildly interesting the first time you read it but you could literally just read a wiki about it and learn more than any manga will likely teach. All in all, there's little about gender bending that's more interesting than the emotional reactions people can have but it takes a skilled author to show those reactions without making it tedious and most authors just aren't that skilled. Hence, why most skip doing anything interesting at all and just use it as a prop for some comedy routine or to fulfill some fetish or wish fulfillment.
As for this manga in particular, the protagonist's reaction to being gender flipped is fairly weak. If there's ever a chapter 2, I'd be surprised if he even acts bothered by it anymore and doesn't just go with the flow. He, like so many in this genre, is getting straight railroaded into life as a girl and will inevitably give up and stop caring about it before long. This is definitely not the kind of manga you can read with your critical thinking enabled but that's the case with like 99.9999999% of manga. Yes, I did just say you can only take about 1 in a million manga seriously and this isn't the one. I can't really say much about the manga since there's only one chapter. What I can say is there's nothing here I haven't seen dozens of times before.
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I approve of this
@Someone777 Have you read Shishunki Bitter Change?
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