Detective Conan

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Ch. 1037 - The Stream of Time...
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I totally thought the second brother was young Sera at the start of the flashback XD
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It says akai shuuichi in both boxes on page 4
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NYOOM
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@ShinobuOshino This is what I get for answering so early in the morning... Really lost my drive guessing blindly about that Penguin pachimono... Gonna let the sleeping lion lie... Same for Vermouth I guess... Noted that we are here for more than ten posts talking sh*t about characters that aren't even the focus of this arc? The sad part is that no one else bothered to tell us to stop... Sorry for the let down... Just realized Karasuma Renya isn't worth of such verborragy... Yet...

Unless she lied to us she didn't know of what you are talking about


You see we can't even follow what each other are saying by now... For the little I still got you have a strict objective view of the thing: The guy wants x, so if he don't gets x it's a scam, while I believe that accidents can happen (sh*t happens in science all the time) and what you can make of it is what counts...

de-aging doesn't mean that you can't die


The thing with the de-aging seems like another misunderstand... If the item is so convenient (always works and he can use anytime(1)) the guy has the perfect "escape exit" for any kind of situation... Everytime he mess up, faking his death, just going MIA and starting anew(2)... To boot, he has lots of loyal followers to solve any inconvenience... My bad if by "assault" the only meaning one can get is the violent and reckless one... I was talking about no one having any resourceful way to stop someone that shouldn't exist(3) (at least legally)... Cue Phineas and Ferb jokes about being too young to take over the world...

This is all I got... my defeat... Let's do this again next chapter... Not sure if I can keep up though...

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mr. Poneis

(1) It's all I can surmise from a drug so special that's completely independent from the already established apotoxin...

(2) Very intelligent and safe, but very coward... Maybe I should brace myself for a letdown if they ever catch him...

(3) See by Conan and Haibara examples, they are having the time of their lives... the fair Ran is the only pertinent motive why Shinichi would ever want to come back...
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@mrponeis
I'm just talking about a possibility, and yes, how can it be speculation if the manga already told how things are?

If she is a successful subject of a drug you don't let them do whatever they want. She nearly died. Worst way of preserving a subject ever.

They make Ai build the drug. Unless she lied to us she didn't know of what you are talking about. Not to mention that if you are searching for eternal youth you don't commission a poison but what you are searching for and you let the researcher, with all the details, come up with a way to find it. She developed a poison like that because they kill people and they don't want to be found out. Both things we know for sure.

I don't understand. de-aging doesn't mean that you can't die. What it means is that you have free time. You can wait for your plan for centuries and it's like days. If this is the case what you'll try to do is be as safe as possible, no matter how much you lose for safety: you'll have time to rebuild it. Oh, and this is exactly what the boss is doing. I don't see any advantages in de-aging if what you want to do is an assault.
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@ShinobuOshino By now we already are speculating with things that the manga/anime didn't bother explaining? Like how the drug should work... or why isn't there yet... Or if it really means something for the Black Organization... Sure it means a lot to Conan and Haibara... But for Gin and the rest it's just some really convenient assassination tool... Even if everyone they killed after "Shinichi" used a different and more efficient way...

Independent of the number of drugs (I say it's just one and you are sure that are at least two different(1))... I dare to say Eternal life and youth the main objective and the only motive Karasuma put so much energy and resources into... The untraceable death is the collateral that separates the guy from his immortality dream. He fears what would happen if he took it again so everything victim of the drug up to now is just a test subject... The take is how clever they were exploring said effect...

By this logic Vermouth isn't really special in a romantic way... she is a successful test subject worth keeping close for observation... Although sure I need to rewatch her showdowns with Conan to inquire further what Shinichi and Ran really are to her... cause by now its just a way to summon some sympathy towards her and keeping her mysterious... Well she isn't a vicious killer, there isn't proof that she killed Jodie's father eithersource(2)... I wouldn't be surprise if she too is part of some secret surveillance organization keeping tabs in that person...

...

If they put a lid in all that someday, well that's great... My main interests lie in the episodic almost slice of life filler chapters anyway...

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mr. Poneis

(1) The problem of having different drugs and one with the comproved de-aging effect... what would Karasuma have to fear? Why the needs of secrecy? Why not take the world by assault?

(2) The classic he was already dead when she got there...
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@mrponeis
Two drugs that do the same thing...

Not exactly the same drug. The purpose of the APTX is to kill people with the unwanted side effect of rejuvenating, the purpose of that one would be just rejuvenating. For example inside the drug Ai used a component that she shouldn't have or stuffs like that, maybe from her parent's research as they started it. I know it's not the best, it was just to say that it's possible. Or maybe it's a drug that instead of making them younger stops their age. Just saying that if it happened once, there may be also something else with a somewhat similar effect. And I'm saying this Just because it seemed that you considered rather impossible/improbable and it doesn't seem that far off to me. But yeah, it could very well be that they are different people. Still, I don't see Conan finding the boss to later say that it wasn't him but his son...

why wouldn't happen to anyone else?

I hope to have answered this by saying that it's not the exact same drug. That one just rejuvenate/stops your age. Why only them? because they are the only ones who took it. The boss because he is the boss, Vermouth because she is her favorite and he didn't want to lose her, I guess. Or maybe also Rum, I don't know. They are the only two I can suspect about.

he problem is why she never realized that Conan is like her?

Wait, she did, right? Wasn't it rather explicit? I mean, She knows that he saved her life back then in the golden apple case and she thinks he'll be the one to bring the BO down, her silver bullet, if I'm not wrong. She knows he is Shinichi, I'm fairly sure of that. She went to great lengths just to keep him and Ran safe.

not so much with a miracle rejuvenation elixir...

The point is that in universe it works like any other drug, so there is nothing that can make you say this is a real drug/this is a magical drug. At least not in-universe. It may not be that well tested, but it may do, we have no info about that. Not to mention that such an organization wouldn't have a lack of test subjects to test them on just to kill them shortly afterward.
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She's really grown since she was a fetus.

Really Akai?
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sera is a woman

WOMAN
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@ShinobuOshino Two drugs that do the same thing... seems disappointing, redundant, and too much of a coincidence... but seems the perfect thing to pass under everyone's radar... By know I'm willing to accept it... Since one of the effects of the apotoxin is being untraceable... It's very probable that Karasuma experimented said effects ONCE and everyone of his associates died in said occasion, what would mirror the terror story back in golden mansion case... Since then he started searching for ways to reproduce the miracle drug... and in the last hundred years Sharon/Chris was the only other successful case... and that's why she's so close with the boss...

And well my point still remains... Independent of how, it happened to them both... why wouldn't happen to anyone else? Flu, cold and even cocaine are to mundane of effects to notice something odd about(1)... not so much with a miracle rejuvenation elixir... The problem is why she never realized that Conan is like her? Maybe she noticed but has a hidden agenda and that's why she's keeping everyone else in the dark... Or well her make up is just impeccable and Karasuma has just has the most astounding vital force known to men(2)...

And well I messed up with the Kaitou Kid cast... Although Aoko total screentime doesn't amount to even 30 seconds in the main series... Aoyama-sensei is just pulling my leg with a refusal for Akako's cameo... Same with Koshimizu Natsuki...

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mr. Poneis

(1) You know it's studied, tested and through registered... Once the posology is the recomended one, the virus didn't suffer any radical mutation and no placebo is involved why someone should expect a different result?

(2) Well maybe it's to early to discard that Sharon and Chris are different people... And maybe even Karasuma are two people, like the Phantom... Without a canon answer every bet is very much alive...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phantom_(comics)
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@mrponeis
The boss and Vermouth knowing about the drug doesn't mean it should be easy for the Black Organization to even guess Conan (and the others) situation?

I'm not sure I understood this, but what I meant is an other drug. Let's take an other example. If your doctor gives you some meds for the flu they won't expect to see the effects of cocaine even if they know that such a drug exists. That's not what they gave you. Same thing with Conan. If I give you a venom that I think works, than I won't expect you to rejuvenate even if I know that a drug with such effects exists.

About magic, Detective Conan uses the science-fiction counterpart of Applied Phlebotinum (never seen a real drug violate the conservation of mass) and after a 1000 chapters I doubt that it'd start with explicit magic, particularly not in the core of the manga. If you don't consider magic what alternative do you have for a 140 old man that is not a drug or a different person? (1)

Although Aoyama rejects bringing anyone else from these former manga [...] It's implied that bringing Kaito's girlfriend Aoko would [...]

Wait, I don't know where you took that from, but Aoko is present. Same for Ginzo Nakamori and Saguru Hakuba.

(1) edit: I mean in-universe-wise. There are obviously alternatives, but a drug that is able to do that was shown, so my best guess is an other drug that does only that. It's just speculation as an answer to you discussing how they could be the same person. I doubt the boss or Vermouth toke the APTX 4869 as it wasn't developed yet and I doubt they wanted to kill themseves
Last edited 8 mo ago by ShinobuOshino.
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@ShinobuOshino

The boss and Vermouth knowing about the drug doesn't mean it should be easy for the Black Organization to even guess Conan (and the others) situation? I'm teamed up with anyone that think it's something else... Well, Kaitou Kid and Yaiba being part of this world (albeit possible as Meitantei Conan counterparts)... suggests that black magic is possible... Although Aoyama rejects bringing anyone else from these former manga(1)... cause if you can explain something with magic all the detective work would be meaningless...

The Mary situation don't seems to be about technology but the PEOPLE involved... after all Sera's has a photo with her as a screensaver...

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mr. Poneis

(1) It's implied that bringing Kaito's girlfriend Aoko would urge people requesting for fan Favorite Akako... and that girl would ruin everything that makes Conan good... YMMV
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It's the guy on the right, right?
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@fennec
I don't think ANYONE knows she got affected aside from Sera and (now) Conan.

Even if Akai doesn't know exactly what happened (taking a drug that should have killed them) I'm pretty sure he understood that it happened to her the same thing that happened to Conan and Ai. But it's not just Akai, I'm fairly sure Dr.Agasa knows too. He may not know who Mary is (like being Akai's mum), but it was pretty obvious that Sera knows someone who was shrunk like Conan and Ai. Additionally from that conversation alone Sera's mum is a candidate for the one that was shrunk (as she lost her bust).

edit: If you meant the BO I agree with you that it's really unlikely that they know.

But yeah, I agree with you that risk should be minimized, but sharing information and having a powerful ally is worth the little additional danger that they'd have if they went from this point to having a connection
Last edited 8 mo ago by ShinobuOshino.
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@mrponeis
How's the hypothesis that Sharon and Chris Vineyard are the same person?

Oh, I thought it was a given that they are the same person, I wasn't even considering the other possibility, I should re-read that part to check. About how, in the same way the boss is 140 years old... They probably have a drug that does as the main thing the side effect of the APTX. It wouldn't introduce anything new.

In her eyes Conan is much of a greenhorn as her own daughter...

That makes sense, I never actually understood the reason why she changed her mind.

a secure way to contact Mary

IRL this is not secure at all, but up until now I never seen anyone in the series using NSA-like abilities, so a phone should be more than enough for that. Alternatively they can ask Agasa as he'll surely have something.

About point B I think they shouldn't introduce Mary to the others and keep it for those who already know. I mean, there are already too many that know about her but have no reason to (like Dr.Agasa). If anything I'd only disclose to Mary about Akai. About living together remember that centralization has all kind of problems [1]. Just sharing useful information and asking for help in case it's safe for the others should be more than enough. Additionally I doubt someone who keeps on moving at the slightest danger would agree to settle down like that.

[1] dangers like revealing the others in case one is found, revealing your numbers to the opponent and increasing the probability of being found as many suspicious people are together. Not to mention that Vermouth and Bourbon already know about Conan and company, while Rum is on their trail. Living together would only worsen Mary and Sera's positions.
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@fennec
One interesting note though: there's been some strong evidence that Mary and Elena (Ai's mom) are sisters.


@okabekudo @ShinobuOshino How's the hypothesis that Sharon and Chris Vineyard are the same person? Well, the manga says that yes they are(1)... but never explained how... the apotoxin, a epic level in the already absurd disguise feat in this series (the most plausible) or just a stand power(2)...

I think that Mary being someone reliable isn't the issue... The series has this incredible lame way to tell if someone is a good person or not... Conan just gets easily defenseless against them (wanting or not)... And in a thousand chapters he was betrayed only once(3)... To be fair the moment he is cheated again everything goes to hell...

The problems lie with
A) a secure way to contact Mary since well, Sera is the way she is...
- Plus the fact that she's supposedly don't know if Shuuichi is alive...
- But Shuukichi seemly does(4) and it's thanks to him she and Sera are well in Japan...
- Being a Haneda makes him a sensible interest for the Black Organization, so he's out too?

B) how to introduce Mary organically with everyone else in the group since she's practically overlapping with Haibara's character... what would create all sort of speculation...
- Subaru's priority is overseeing Haibara, so he can't leave the Kudou's residence... and he can't bring Sera in cause officially they are strangers... Bringing only Mary would be a thing, though leaving Sera alone is a hell of a liability?
- There were already a precedent with the case when Conan just went and lost the bowtie... But it was Mary that cut any communication chance there... In her eyes Conan is much of a greenhorn as her own daughter...

C) And every jokes with Akai/Subaru having a way younger mother... Not a heavy issue, I just like the rule of 3...

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mr. Poneis

(1) Only Jodie-sensei believes so? Some chapters says that Yukiko knew the two... She is a fan of the former and studied with the later under Kuroba Touichirosource...

(2) It ruins such a very good joke... But there is this IRL meme about japanese people getting younger everytime they put a new photo on the internet that started with Jojo's author Araki Hirohiko...

(3) The moment he thought Gin was an average Joe...

(4) There's a recent chapter where Akai protected Yumi from a assailant at Shuukichi request... Although they never explained if Shuukichi knows that Shuuichi is Subaru... Akai even went as himself and all...
Last edited 8 mo ago by mrponeis.
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I'm just laughing because at the end of the flashback Akai was thinking "She's really grown since then," and Sera hadn't even been born yet.

Also on the whole Mary being possibly tied to the BO: one thing worth noting is I don't think ANYONE knows she got affected aside from Sera and (now) Conan. Hell, Akai was using this chapter to check if she was alive. Conan hasn't outright informed Akai of HOW he got shrunk, and he's constantly trying to play it safe. In this situation, it really is better to make sure as few people know as possible to minimize risks if things go wrong.

One interesting note though: there's been some strong evidence that Mary and Elena (Ai's mom) are sisters. I think this chapter basically confirmed it with Conan's revelation about "Little sister from outside the domain"—it's a direct reference to how Mary is Elena's younger sister, but NOT caught up with the organization. I wouldn't put it past Elena to warn Mary to be careful once it became clear she'd potentially die soon, especially if she figured out Mary's husband was also investigating the BO. She probably wouldn't give her ALL the details for her own safety, but those two links would make Mary a very large target. Just food for thought.
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@okabekudo
Yeah, but Vermouth is not your normal agent. The boss was showing her many favoritisms. And she has a reason for not telling (Conan would be killed and she doesn't want that). On the other hand an agent like Mary that didn't tell them about Akai wouldn't be trusted like that. And about Akai, it'd be strange to me if they told Sera about him without telling Ai, even if it'll probably happen like that anyway. On your favor we have the time when Mary escaped after the death of her husband. Back then she went to a place she claimed to be safe, but it's actually the starting place of the BO and it's full of agents on both sides trying to fight each other. But even there, there are various ways to explain that decision even without having her to be part of the Organization.
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@ShinobuOshino Yeah it's higly unlikely and tbh I doubt it myself as that would stray away from Aoyama's typical style of writing but Vermouth for example knows about the side effect of the APTX4869 and then there's the question as to why Akai just doesn't reveal himself. But maybe he just doesn't reveal himself because the less people know the better.
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@okabekudo
It can be, but it's pretty unlikely.

It would mean that the organization knows that the drug has that side effect, but nonetheless it doesn't inform the ones that use it to check for that possibility when killing someone. One of the Rum suspects recently viewed the list and Shinichi was considered dead, not unknown so they still think the drug is effective. If this isn't enough it would mean that after they killed her husband she went to side with them and didn't inform them that her son was working for the CIA and they still trusted her after his betrayal. Did Akai really betray them or is still working for them? Additionally it'd raise the question who they are trying to hide from. The CIA? MI6? Why are they not being sheltered by the BO if they are together? It's also worth notice that the second in command of the Organization is looking for Shinichi so it'd mean Mary -a person that has already betrayed someone and that is the mother of Akai- is able to operate without the second in command even knowing of what she is doing or her progress. Is Rum really the second in command? Lastly it would mean that the Black Organization left such an important matter like someone finding an antidote/a way to revert the drug to the likes of Sera when they have many others that are better than her.

So, yeah, it's possible, but it'd mean that we are really full of false and distorted information. If you have a theory that is somewhat able to explain what's their real objective and from there derive their behavior with plausible decisions in a way that is somewhat coherent with what happened in the story so far, than I'll change my mind. But as of now it seem so unlikely that if I were him I'd have no problem ignoring a possibility like Mary working for the BO.
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