Koushaku Reijou no Tashinami

You need to log in to comment.

Vol. 6 Ch. 44
Avatar
Honestly I think they should have built the new church first before tearing down the old one. Unless they're rebuilding it at the same spot.
Avatar
Comments section has been incredibly intriguing, most of what's been said here makes sense.
Avatar
Hmm..... Her braid is inconsistent.
Avatar
simply my favorite part in the novel so far
Avatar
Nooooooooo i've reached the latest translated chapter
Avatar
It looks like chapter 60 of the web novel is around where this stops if anyone is interested in continuing to read. Also heads up, some of the "translations" get so bad that google translating the raws is comparable in quality. Looking at you, Asian Hobbyist.
Last edited 8 mo ago by poobpoob.
Avatar
@Darkkusu
I don't know, but if someone reply to one of my comments after 26 days, I'd personally like to know that, so that I can explain my reasoning. Otherwise you are complaining one-sidedly, and to me it doesn't seem that polite. If there is an other way if knowing if someone posted a reply to one of your comments after a month that is not polling all the threads you posed comments on, than I'd like to know it.

You are right that you shouldn't compare people, but people kept on saying that I think emotions=>weak, crying on a man=>to censor, anything related to psychology => weak and so on. Things that no one is arguing. So I tried to point out an example in which that applies too, but not the negative points of this manga. In this way I hope people will finally realize my point.

-------- Manipulative and thus not trustworthy:

As I said in the second part of my previews answer, if you depend on someone, and you can't trust them or quickly replace them, than it's a weakness because they can betray you and you have no way to answer. Obviously there are other ways other than those two, but they don't apply here. About him being trustworthy, let's first handle him lying and deceiving her. (it should be read along with the manga)

- 2: "well, I thought that now would ..." That's right, but not the point, that's not what she asked.
- 4: "you need it, right?" Even she realizes that that's not the point
- 5: "I simply ask that you to trust me" Note the "simply". Considering that after all this time she still know nothing of him and he manages to pull out something like that, that's not a "simply"
- 5: "I'm yours to control" One huge and obvious lie. Not because he is a prince, but what said above. But even if it's an obvious lie she needs him and this makes it possible that she'll believe him nonetheless.
- 5: "If I were not capable of assistance now, than when I could ever be?" An other thing that doesn't make any sense, but it can be effective. You don't base your ability to help someone else on their hardest point in life. It's just there to make it seem natural when it's not.
- 6: "With all due respect..." This is true, and it's like saying that he fully know her while she doesn't know him. Of all people she has around don't choose this one to trust.
- 7: physical contact with the speaker can improve the desire to bond, if done correctly. As a prof, afterwards she actually rejected this contact.
- 7: "despsite all their worries..." He is saying that everyone is thinking what he is going to say (and thus make it more valid) and that he is the best because he is actually saying it.
- 8: "why must you hide your weakness from others?" Asking this to someone who has trouble keeping on being strong can demolish them. It surely won't help them solve their problems of powerlessness and unsuitability. This independently of the fact that she should or should not open up.
- 8: "you allow it to build up..." it's all your fault. you should open up and right now I'm here, so open up with me. I'm not saying opening up is wrong, but it's not the point.
- 8: "why do you push yourself to remain strong in face of hardship?" Like two points above. it's equivalent of saying "why are you strong?" which imply "you shouldn't be strong."
- 10: "you may have a point there" You say that they are partially right so that they feel they should start cooperating too, so she start giving something up. And when one starting giving up it's easier to make them give up more.
- 10: "That is a dangerous mindset..." exactly the opposite of what he just said. "you may be right, but you're totally wrong." This should make you understand the previews point was really just for that reason.
- 10: "And so is the look on your face right now". It's a fallacy. You are using a thing to demonstrate a logically unrelated one, but it has its effect.
- 16/17: physical contact and he reassure her saying the exact opposite of what he said before.
- 16: "everyone else thinks the same" While they may agree on many things, they may not agree on leaning on him instead of them.
- 16: "I doubt that just words..." Than what in hell are you doing right now?
- 17: "... please don't take... | I shall handle the ...." Lean on someone, for example me. With something concrete so that she soon have a positive feedback that she did the right thing to lean on him.

And it's not like all 18 of those points must be right, but even removing a couple of them to me this is still enough to think he was trying to manipulate her. This make me think he was manipulative, not that he is a prince or a male. This paired with her knowing practically nothing of him should be enough to say that he is not someone she should trust that much.

------- What I think happened and why exaggerated:

"how can you be really sure that she won't be able to stand up back again?" To me one of the points is not having those thoughts in the evening, but in the morning. When she was more relaxed and when she wasn't that emotionally tied to the situation anymore. Additionally he didn't solve her problem, but covered it. So to me it looks like that she had a problem of not believing in herself (rather normal) and the prince instead of solving it, smashed the little confidence she had so that she can start leaning on him. On the surface the result looks the same, but new what gives her the strength is not believing in herself but knowing that he is there with her. Leaning on someone you can trust is good if you don't need it. If it's just to cover your fragility than it's deleterious as fragility can and should be solved. But something like this makes the person think they solved it, when they didn't. It makes them extremely dependent on someone as losing them is associated with returning to how it was before and with a feeling of false hope that makes it even worse.

I base this whole thing on two points: she didn't solve her problems but still behaved as if she did and after a sleep (when relaxed and more emotionally detached) se said that she need him or she won't be able to stand back up again. If her problem was solved she wouldn't need him like that anymore. She'd need him because she loves him, but not because of that. That means her problem is still there. Problems can be solved, and surely not like that. If having and not having a problem is the same, than why would we need psychology? I'm not asking her to have no problems, but to gradually solve them, not piling them up like that.

I'm not even saying the author was being unrealistic. What happened is totally possible. But usually you make a character temporarily weaker to make them stronger afterward, not more fragile. As I said, even if it doesn't seem likely from that ending, it can be fixed. But even if it does, it doesn't change that it was unneeded. Instead of saying that she didn't have any confidence to begin with, it could have been just stress and walking forward alone. Meta-story-wise even if they fix this problem than this whole thing will change only two things: She'll be closer to the prince and she won't be considered a Mary Sue, but for the rest she'll be the same as what it looked like before. If those two things are what the author wanted to do, than this was needlessly huge.
Last edited 8 mo ago by ShinobuOshino.
Avatar
@ShinobuOshino Ah, that series handle the crumble part well compared to this one. Which is funny since shounen manga tend to exaggerate more than shoujo manga lol.
Avatar
So we're being polite by tagging now lul
Ok @ShinobuOshino

I really think you're still wrong: in summary you stated that she's not strong just dependant, the thing is that someone depending on anyone else does not mean that person is not strong.
Let's check Iris background a bit: In the entire manga she had no emotional support from anyone even if she had a group of friends and family around her, the reason is simple and the clues were just right there on every ch where she was working her ass out, she sheltered herself but she still kept walking even if it was her fear that made her walk, yes she kept walking, but basically she was walking alone.
I don't think that the words from the prince were a complete lie, making your fears become your strength is really impressive, so there is strength in fear, I don't think it was completely a manipulation attempt as he was right (although it may be the case that it was a manipulation attenpt, that's the point, that's the drama at this point, you're the one who knows that he's the first prince, not Iris)

In that part was the first time in the entire manga where she had an emotional support, it's logical to think that you won't be able to stand up again if your only support to this point betrays you, but they're just thoughts, how can you be really sure that she won't be able to stand up back again? it would be so unrealistic to not have those kinds of thoughts in a situation like that, but having them doesn't mean you're weak, unless your definition of strength is an ideal, then again you want a Mary Sue.

Also, i find kinda wrong to compare a single situation due to being "similar" when the background can be really different, it's like when they say you only see the tree but not the forest.
But anyway, if you still think otherwise I guess I can respect your opinion.

Pd: don't expect a reply as I came from Reddit and just came back out of curiosity, I don't often visit this site
Avatar
@Darkkusu
I'm not @maddery (I tagged you as you are the only one that used "overreacting" in the whole thread and I think that replying without a tag is impolite), but you used the plural "ones", so I'll answer for my side as I commented a lot on this thread about this.

This chapter radically changed her character. Both before it and after it. Additionally I too think that her reaction was probably exaggerated. A thing is crying and losing your way, an other one is crumble like that, without coming back afterward.

let's take an other manga as example. A shounen that handled a similar situation better than this shoujo (to me this is really surprising). In particular in chapter 108 of We can't study contains a girl and her reason of life, the reason why she keeps on studying to be admitted to a school even after failing the exams stop existing, she even "cries to a man.", but I have no problem with that manga because of the following differences:
- In that manga the girl realize that he is trying to do (and afterwards she cries anyway, not important) the one in this manga is older, has more responsibilities and doesn't.
- he is not trying to manipulate her that badly with reasoning that don't make any sense and that is designed just to make her depend on him.
- Afterwards that girl probably did like him a bit more, but she wasn't like "I can't stand back up without him" like it was in this manga. This is a huge difference, more later.
- two chapter after the guy solves the problem. The problem is solved i.e. no longer there. She doesn't need him for it anymore, independently of how much she like him now, that's a different matter.

She is only apparently better. She didn't solve her problem. The problem is still there, it's just sleeping because of her new dependency on him. His presence is keeping the problem in check. If you confront this with the manga above you'll see that here the problem is not solved, just covered. Because of this now she has a dependency on him as she need him or she'll return in a worse state than before. This can be seen at page 19 (lower right). She is more fragile now and thus less mentally healthy. The girl in the other manga instead improved after the four chapters.

And about the past, this chapter revealed that she pushed forward only out of fear, that's not being strong: that's escaping into work. This means that she was actually weaker than what she used to look like. For example I have no problem with a character like that, but the manga was misleading.

All this wasn't needed. It's possible to make her cry and panic or being over-stressed, but with less lasting damage. If this wasn't an exaggeration (as I hope) than the next chapters would need to expand on this, the problem is still there. If the manga act as if the thing was solved (as it looks like from that ending), than it was an exaggeration.

@Arythazin
I'm sorry I didn't answer back then, but I hope the example above will show a better way, I'm not saying it's the best and I know it's a shounen, but it shows a different and less dramatic reaction to when you see your world crumbling, and not less realistic than this one. from chapter 107 to chapter 110, if you feel like reading it.

Depending on someone is a weakness, independently of what kind of dependence you have. The fact that it's an emotional one is not relevant about this. The point is who you depend up on. Is it someone you can trust? is it a dependency you can replace quickly enough? Here the answer to both is "no" when at least one of the two should have been "yes". This is absolutely not a masculine reasoning it's politics and economy. She runs a company and a region, she should know and that's one of the reasons why I'm complaining. Read any political story, read "A song of Ice and fire". But if you think that that's masculine too, than consider this manga. If your economy depends on export, than you have a weakness (a dependency) and you know she did suffer because of that. In particular this looks to be a psychological dependency more than emotional one, but that's not important. what's important is page 19 when she admit it.

And about him not being manipulative, no, he didn't just do what you said. you jumped all the important parts. the entire thing was to make her crumble. That's the only reason why you'd ever start questioning someone's strength in that situation or those huge lies. I'd say that his whole reasoning was "insane troll logic", for those who like tropes. Particularly a really rhetoric one to make her depend on him and crumble. That was the purpose. Think about what he said and if it reflect what's going on or if it's said to make her dependent on him, lose confidence in herself and start crying. Additionally she already did lean on other people in past chapters so it wasn't that the problem. For example one of the problems she had was that she didn't believe in herself, as she said at page 9. What he did in this chapter only worsened that (and substituted it with him).

"[...] and that she is finally opening up fully." you talked about masculine logic, but that looks taken straight out of a shounen. Take Fairy tail: Friendship is power, you should be open to the outside, trust everyone, one big family. I'm not saying that this is wrong, but opening up to whom? Someone that is blatantly trying to make you depend on him in that way? Who cares if it's a girl or a male: that's an horrible move. Someone that just demonstrated to have power beyond what you thought he had? i.e. someone you know nothing about? still a bad move. If this manga wants to make this pass for a normal or good move, than I'll start reading something else and you should too or you'd start believing that this was actually handled correctly. The fact that it'll later be shown that he actually had good intentions make it even worse, as if it was just exaggerated for a red herring.
Avatar
She shouldn't "overreact", she shouldn't "be crying to a man"? Damn, what's wrong with you people.
I bet the ones saying these kind of things are the first ones to cry when they receive a notice of seizure.

Dudes, all the effort she put over the last 3 years on the field, depriving herself from resting, is being taken down by some selfish interests and revenge intentions; plus she has the pressure of a possible riot by her own people, and the pressure of being a weight for her family, and let's not forget the chaos at the company and the possible threat to her life... But she's "overreacting"?

If you want some stupid forced Mary Sues you should go some stupid fantasies as Star Wars 8, because Iris breaking down in this chapter is the most realistic thing I've seen in a drama in a while. Remember kids, not being a forced Mary Sue doesn't mean she's not strong, crying doesn't make you less strong, it's simply natural and it's a need.
Last edited 8 mo ago by Darkkusu.
Avatar
@Mitsusecrets Pages 8, 9, and 10 are out of order, but thanks for the chapter!
Avatar
What chapter would this be in the novel, if I wanted to continue?
Avatar
you know legitimate plot development is great an all but fffffff shes actually creating an emotional bond with dean so I’m not pointlessly banking on romance for them ?? I’m shipping for an actual reason
Avatar
@AlmondMagnum So? His method is still wrong, and she's so damn ooc here. Overreacting as per typical Japanese style. Should've tone that down since this is not shounen.
Avatar
People here keep saying that she is worse off now after that night of screaming out her worries and breaking down a bit. I still don't see how though, unless you see her as weaker/lesser for not keeping up a strong front or relying on someone for comfort. And please don't say that breaking down and depending on someone emotionally is a sign of weakness and disgusting/detestable, because that's the same kind of masculine reasoning that leads to emotional stunting.

And even if Dean was being manipulative (but all he did was say she looks like shit and bottling it up will ruin her, then hug her and tell her to rely on them and go to sleep), I can't imagine what kind of better method/result people want. Do you want her to suddenly go 'oh yeah, I can relay my worries to other people, thanks Dean!' and still maintain her composure? Because the whole breaking down and crying/yelling is the way of showing both the stress she bottled in and that she is finally opening up fully. I think the problem is that people think that she doesn't want to cry about her problems when, according to her in this very chapter, all the stress and problems she might cause others really makes her want to cry a little bit, at least. And unfortunately some people here think less of her because of that, and then they despise Dean for bringing her down to that level and letting her crumble/cry. Iris is strong that she keeps going forward, but please don't look down on her for breaking down at the current predicament she's on. Especially since she already shows she's taking more steps at the end of the chapter, not wallowing in sadness.
Last edited 9 mo ago by Arythazin.
Avatar
I find 1 major problem with the setting of the situation - the people already know there's a new church being built in place of the old one. Or, should, at least. It didn't happen yesterday, the construction is almost done, since religion is depicted as having a strong influence, the news about both church buildings would spread quickly through the city. So saying the distrust of the people is spreading due to demolishing the old church is well... absurd. People sure are dumb, but not that dumb.
Avatar
His smirk on page 17...
Avatar
@Acolytus
Welp. I didn't read the original story and until now no one of "anyone who read the original story" said a thing about that. If all the arguments against me are chapter-based you can't blame me because nobody told me that in the future they'll show that I'm wrong. If that's the point say it, if you just go around it with those kind of half-assed arguments you all did before, you're not going to convince anyone in that way.

If you say knowing the future that he was trying to help her, so be it. But that neither changes that it wasn't the best way to do it nor that he was manipulating her as he made her do what he wanted against her will. His end is not gonna change the mean he used. You think it was a good thing, I don't. Just a different set of ethics. And by the way, this can also explain why he was made to look that shady: to make his behavior into a red herring for the manga only to later reveal that he was an ally. This would also mean that your comment was a spoiler, but thanks for answering with a decent argument anyway.

As per all the Don Quixote still fighting straw-mans, I'll ignore them as said in my previews comment. I've got no intention to keep on answering people who argue against things no one ever said and that I answered many times over. You either attack what I said or it's just a War on straws. Just reread my old messages if you want to know what I actually said, but I guess trolls don't care for the opponent's argument. And mistaking the novel for the manga as if they are the same thing and everyone has knowledge of both is not helping either.
Last edited 9 mo ago by ShinobuOshino.
Avatar
I honestly can't tell if that scene with her crying with Dean was supposed to be heartwarming or if he was being so-so about it... The manga definitely made the scene feel heavy but I couldn't see them as a pairing the way they were drawn in this scene. He looked pretty cold when to talking to her so the argument and embrace felt distant. Meanwhile, I like how Iris' frustration was portrayed. You could feel it oozing off the comic panels. Feels more like a rare glimpse of how she actually feels inside and the dude was merely there to see it.

I dunno. I guess I imagined it differently when I read the novel! He seemed sweeter?
Last edited 9 mo ago by liszst.
Read older comments