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| 1 mo ago
FUCK that stalker bitch is always a nuisance
| 2 mo ago
@VladDracul2 @Southpaw 1 year later, I came to comment, but you already dissected the chapter very thoroughly: I probably enjoyed your discussion more than the chapter itself.
The only thing left to say is that when I hear someone self-proclaming a genius, I always think of this.
| 2 mo ago
@Kampfarsch So, once again, in chapter 10 "Mister" writes down a fake number and gives it to stalker girl. She calls it and figures out it was fake, then, she grabs his phone and forcibly gets the real number. When he quits work the next day she gets the manager to tell her his "address". She then goes there and realizes it was a fake address. In chapter 26, Matsubase is in the cafe and meets the girl. She then proceeds to write down "Mister"'s real phone number and fake address on a new piece of paper and give it to Matsubase. "Mister" never wrote down his fake address only the fake phone number, the paper Matsubase got was a different one from the one "Mister" wrote on.
| 2 mo ago
@tempforthis yeah but she gave him the piece of paper with the fake information on it stupid
| 2 mo ago
@Kampfarsch I know your post was months ago, but, the stalker girl took his phone and forcibly exchanged numbers after she realized he gave her a fake number.
| 5 mo ago
it cant be the same number because he gave her a fake number wtf
| 9 mo ago
Sachi so unlucky. Things never go her way. Obstacles left and right non stop.
| 9 mo ago
Don't get me wrong,I like detective man,but I really wish Onii-san & Sachi live happily ever after together.
| 11 mo ago
That god damn waitress
| 1 year ago
Man i wish this detective can keep his nose out of there buisness honestly shes better off killing that guy and herself
| 1 year ago
Hmm.. All fair points.
I knew that you responded to others as well, but when you include me like this, it's hard to understand what is aimed at me, them, or all of us at the same time.
Either way, discussion or not, me disagreeing with you or not; it was an interesting read.
For example I thought your thoughts about her being locked out, not to be exactly valid as an "argument" here, but it was still something to think about.. Why was she locked out that day?
I hope we will find out.
| 1 year ago
Hello, thanks for the response. I wasn't trying to argue with you, sorry if it came across that way. I didn't completely disagree with the fact that he should have at least thought about it. I think it's a valid point. I have read what you stated previously before I started to type the analysis, and I may have repeated some points here and there but from my understanding, in your exchange, you two didn't focus on the situation in the manga itself (such as the psychological factors) so I tried to elaborate on that.
I don't necessarily think his background is an excuse. It's probably the main reason why his judgement is clouded in the first place. Like you said, people act different to similar situations, and this is exactly one of them. He may have projected himself onto her too much as a result from being emotionally invested. I also pointed out that the main characters are quite peculiar. So I don't think it's that he can't grasp the fact that different people think differently, but more of there's no logical way to reach a conclusion on how the couple are thinking in the first place, because those two aren't 'normal'. I assume that detectives learn about psychology, so they will inevitably think more along those lines. Also, I didn't make up the points about how domestic abuse victims don't run away. There is a reason that they stay in abusive relationships. I've also personally encountered such people (not as extreme as this manga of course). If you are interested you could research more on that topic.
And to elaborate on the last paragraph of my previous response, there isn't much about the character that we know about, he may be 'smart' but he could also be inexperienced. It could also be argued that he wasn't thinking outside the box in the first place, but that he deduced the evidence faster simply because of his background. So your point about the character being portrayed badly still stands. But at this point it doesn't break his character for me (though that may be because I've seen characters portrayed much more badly in comparison).
Last edited 1 year ago by simplicity.
| 1 year ago
Thank you for your respond, it was a good read.
However, I feel like I yet again has to re-state my issue...
I agree with almost everything you had written as reason, even thought some make a lot of sense, reason for why he might DISMISS, it being consentual, and her being forced.
But my issue was that he never did, we never once saw him even being open to the idea of a runaway.
But let me adress the points of your I don't buy, if it isn't adressed, considering it either insignificant, shared a similar explanation, or I accepted it, take it as you like. However, I'm a little ticked that most of what I will say is something I've already stated my stance on, hence why I and Vlad decided to move on.
That he doesn't know her as a person goes BOTH way here. I am sorry, but "him having a similiar background" is just silly as an excuse. If you as a detective can't even grasp a concept that different people have different way of thinking; then quit. Seriously, people act different to similar situations. This is what personality is about....
People run away ALL the time, with different motivations and different circumstances. I admit that having a place to run to increases the chance, but in the case of migration, these terms go by the name "pull" and push" factors.
And if abuse isn't a strong "push factor", I don't know what is....
I know that you respond to multiple people, but seriously, I still can't belive that I still need to point this one out. Yes, he is an outsider and doesn't have the same insight about the case like we readers do. But for fuck sake, he still has SOME clues and SOME insight that in my opinion should AT LEAST open his mind a tiny bit. I wouldn't mind if he STILL BELIEVED that she was kidnapped (for whatever reasons). But not even CONSIDERING it being a case of runaway as a detective when he KNOWS she was abused is just dumb. Him KNOWING that she was ABUSED should be enough of a reason to at least think outside the box. Heck, what was even the point of showing us the reader that he was able to see outside the box, only to still think inside it?
| 1 year ago
@Southpaw @Draidon @Rozzak Just tagging you guys because I thought you may be interested in an analysis of the situation, but you don't have to read/respond. :)
These are some of the reasons why I think the detective may not have considered her as acting out of her own will. He comes from the same abusive background, so he knows that she wouldn't have considered running away (which she didn't, she initially wanted to commit suicide). What he doesn't know is that the parents locked her out first and he probably wouldn't have been able to guess that. Even I find that behaviour strange, her parents have always confined her in the house, but why lock her out this one time? They could've just kept her in handcuffs like always. Since he knows where she's coming from, he probably deducted that she wouldn't have any friends, much less a boyfriend. Who would she run away with? There isn't such a person.
(More under cut)
Mr. Kidnapper is suspicious. They don't know his real name, and he clearly has more than one identity. All of that couldn't have been done in a short time, meaning that he was a sketchy guy even before kidnapping Sachi. The detective is thinking from a more logical perspective as well. Would a normal person decide to follow someone like Mr. Kidnapper? Nope. Even the author said themselves that the story is only possible with a character like Sachi and Mister. Most people that are trying to seek help would do so in a more typical way, such as going to the police. I think it's safe to say the detective can't even begin to fathom what logic those two have to be together willingly even if he's smart. We only know more because of the narrative, but he's coming from the outside not knowing anything about the other two's personalities. And like it was mentioned before, the testimony from the teacher can't be fully trusted, so he can't confirm if they planned to get the teacher caught together. Likewise, the testimony from the grandma won't indicate willingness either.
I mentioned that he 'knew' she wouldn't run away because of their same abusive background. I'll try to quickly elaborate on this. Abuse victims don't tend to seek help. That's why it's so hard to help them and find them, because even if someone else knew they try to cover up for their abuser. People that suffer abuse make excuses on why they deserve it. Sachi only considered to leave after waiting hours for her parents to open the door. Even after that, she was only going to commit suicide and not try to seek help. So I think it still makes sense why he would come to the conclusion that she wasn't 'willingly kidnapped.'
This is abit off the topic, but even in a situation where someone runs away with their boyfriend, as long as that person is a child, it's still considered kidnapping in the eyes of the law even if the people in the situation don't see it that way. And there are situations were men prey on young girls and date them, in order to force them into doing things. So if anything, I think it is still valid to say that it was weird that it never crossed his mind. He should have at least thought of the last situation I mentioned. But that may just be due to editing instead of the character's fault. We aren't given enough info about them at this point to really know anyway.
That turned out way longer than I wanted. ?Hopefully that was helpful in some way.
| 1 year ago
@Trippy It's very possible this is a fake out, and they're at the wrong address.
| 1 year ago
I... have nothing else to say. I agree with you that we've reached a point where further discussion will bear nothing; we both have points where we agree with the other and all of the potential disagreements lay mostly on personal views of the matter. We've reached a consensus where our views intersected and on the small differences we have agreed to disagree.
Guess that here ends the argument between us, it was a pleasure to discuss with you, wish you the best of lucks.
Last edited 1 year ago by MangaDex.
| 1 year ago
I will try to keep it short, since I believe that we have hit a wall where we will either completly agree with each other, or disagree, and further discussion wouldn't bear much..
I think we agree with the major and general parts. They are human that that can (and will) make mistakes.
But mistakes are a grey-zone, where they're often determined with subjectiv thoughts.
Some mistakes are acceptable, common and human. Others are just plain stupid.
Some mistakes are acceptable for some but not others. We all have our lines.
This is why I used my House analog. To convey how I feel (think) about this mistake.
I understand your example about Foreman. But since I believe the discussion should be where we draw the line of what is acceptable; I believe that my exaggerated is more in line to this detective's mistake where both were about a lack of fundemental knowledge that is in line with their work, and they both have proven to be geniuses in..
(I've showed where I draw the line, but I still don't know yours, since you stated from the beginning that you played the "Devil's advocate", a role I respect and myself take on time to time)...
However, I didn't even ask for much. I wouldn't mind him still beliving in her being kidnapped if he at least had showned thoughts of other possibilites, only to dissmiss them for whatever reason(s).
But lets face it, the most possible casue for the detective being this way is because the author wanted to create tension.
Will he become a friend, or foe for this young "couple"..?
Him showing signs of considering other possibilites would show us that he is truly reasonable and thus must become the former.
Which I get, the author wanted to create a more dramatic continuation instead of making it "realistic". Which I even agree with.
Just a tad tired of the fad of characters showing great insight and knowledge in order to move a plot foreward, only to become almost complete moronic in order to move the plot foreward...
But with that in mind, maybe what you said about the detective's last thoughts are somewhat right.
Of course it still being semantic and doesn't prove anything still holds true. However the author wanted to indicate without spoiling too much that the detective is reasonable and will thus become a friend.
I can't wait to see what happens...
| 1 year ago
Actually this was for everyone, since pretty much everybody was commenting about the same thing. Funnily enough, I originally wanted to separate my text in both general and specific, but decided against it since it would've taken the already long wall of text into fortress levels.
Now, onto the topic at hand:
Let me start by saying two things:
Second, for some reason I completely missed the 18° chapter, so my knowledge of the situation was rather faulty (like the detectives).
That being said, there are some parts that I need to counter-counterargument on, so for the sake of a healthy discussion (and an easier reading) I will do it in order.
The House example you gave I actually liked very much, didn't really think of it before but it applies rather well to the whole detective situation (but then again that's the point of the show). Nonetheless, you must also remember that in the show, as in real life, they make multitude of exams that reveal plethora of things and, most importantly, have the person in question at their disposal for any kind of tests or questions they need to make; the detectives here count with nothing but lying people and second-hand info. The pregnant example sounds like a bit of a stretch, but then again House once had a patient who complained that everywhere he touched it hurt him (spoiler, his finger was broken); doctors typically go from obvious to rare, but then again this is not about doctor work but detective one, in which the same statement applies just as true.
Sure, not knowing some things are outright sins, but then again, it's only human to sin (mwahahaha). Taking once again an example from House, doctor Foreman once had a cocky episode and ended up literally killing a patient due to his hubris, this worked to humble him a ton and made him ever more meticulous and careful with his diagnostics. People often make mistakes that can end up with dire consequences, both for him and the people involved, and that's what makes them all the more human and less Sue-ish.
Now then, back to the detective. We must take into account that the detective made this case personal and models it around his own circumstances, so his judgement is clearly clouded. It's very possible that he has the possibility of her running away in a corner of his mind, but he doesn't pay much attention to it because of both panic (this is a serious case and he has to hurry) and all the evidence so far (bad testimony and bad people) points to something else, that or his own past is telling him what he would do in her situation. You don't see a guy clutching his leg in pain and instantly assume that it's his hands that's in pain and he uses his leg to stop the blood flow, you go instantly to the obvious and then work from there to the less obvious and the outlandish. He only knows now that there WAS a kidnapper, since there was no previous indication about her being close to any male of any age beyond his father, hence his reluctance to believing she ran away with someone; it couldn't have been by her own either since she pretty much had no one else to rely on.
There's also into account something that most people fail to take into account whenever they read manga or watch anime, which is: they are in Japan, with Japanese culture that's different from our western culture. Sure enough, this doesn't excuse everything, but after reading a few (hundred) manga and watching some videos about it, you start to get why some people tend to avoid making a scandal or allowing people to step over them... sometimes...
Also, sure enough, he knows that the parents lied about Sachi being abused and the time of her disappearance, but that's as far as the knowledge they have goes, they have no clue on the extent of the abuse, the reasons for it nor do they know about the exact time and circumstances of her actions; he even said that it was a worse case scenario and that he didn't know the full extent of what happened and he's deducing based on circumstantial evidence and personal experience.
People more often than not tend to assume malice unless there's proof of the contrary, which only worsens when there's personal feelings involved in the matter, he is simply assuming the worst and acting accordingly, since it's much easier to apologize to an angry person than to apologize to a corpse. Sure enough, being genius means being able to think outside the box and reach an answer by looking at it from outside, but that only works for certain situations and doesn't really apply all of the time, they are still human and still make mistakes, making assumptions and letting past experiences dictate their actions, because for as genius as they may be, they are still human. Not to mention that, so far, the only person to ever call him a genius is himself, who comes from a no-name detective agency; his statement may as well be as flawed as the testimony he gets.
And about my high note... well, that was my bad, I originally meant end-note but wrote the wrong thing and only realized afterwards. Anyways, sure enough, in scanlating business many things get lost in translation, but at the end the meaning prevails (in the good groups at least): he wants to save xxx, mostly as a way to "save his past self", but save her nonetheless.
Well, at the end of the day, what you said did make me change my mind about some things. Can the detective guy be considered a genius? Hardly. Did the mangaka do a good job portraying him? Doubtfully. Are his thought processes well defined and properly thought out? No way Jose. Does all of this make this a bad manga? ABSOLUTELY NOT. This hasn't exactly been a masterpiece, but then again this was originally a side-project that the mangaka make in his pixiv and that got serialized due to the high response, with none of his previous works being what you would call a literary masterpiece either or a perfectly written one, so I say we give him a bit of a leeway in this.
Besides, we're here for the mush and the good feelings, not to watch Hawaii Five-O or Sherlock.
| 1 year ago
So Young Ace Detective looks like he might be catching on to the peculiarities of his case.
So, the author hints that everything will be "undone." Which means a lot of things; hopefully Sachi having a happy ending is the result. It might very well be the "kidnapping" is undone. YAD finds xxxx and reports that she had ran off with her older boyfriend, K. Napper. It could happen but I'm not so sure that it will. I'm hoping for a happy end but I'll settle for a bitter but hopeful one.
| 1 year ago
I don't know if all this was for me, since you didn't include an @ or my name. However, I do feel this is adressed to me and related to my discussion below so I will respond anyway.
I only saw this since I thought it came a new chapter and got excited... (I do believe on can complain and still enjoy that very same thing).
Although, I believe that one could divide your points into two fields: General and Specific.
I do agree with you on the general stuff. So I will not dwelve too much on that. They (can't) doesn't need to be perfect, and their vision of the events is limited unlike us veiwers.
E.g this is why vigilantes will never work on real life. WE as an audience knows everything we need to draw a conclusion that (e.g) 'Batman' is a good guy, but the people in that universe don't.
However, I'm afraid you tried to apply general truth to a very specific story in which I believe this can't be applied.
But instead of going right into it, since I do actually believe that I somewhat talked about it; I want to try to convey you how I feel about this person. And then walk through why I believe "your" general points doesn't really apply here.
Imagine you're watching a House episode. Maybe you haven't seen him, but you know the show is about dr. House solving "mysterious" diseases.
A woman walks in, her stomach is swelling, she has morning sickness and she craves the most unusal food combinations.
House can't for the life of him figure out what is wrong with her.
Now he get the information that she has a boyfriend and they have been doing it without protection for the last months.
Nope, House is still stumped...
But do YOU know what is happening to her?
Spoiler, she is pregnant.
I get that "geniuses" sometimes skip necerssary steps, and that they've flaws like everyone else.
But these flaws often come up in something else then their expertise. House is a grumpy a-hole with a drug addiction.
And some steps are so fundemental that and incoperated into the job that NOT knowing them IS a sin. Since they are missing knowledge that is essential to even do what they do in the first place.
Let countinue with the hospital trend as an example:
Not coming to the conclusion that the women get pregnant as a doctor, that is a sin, Dr Cox (from Scrubs) not knowing that a patient had "rabies" (I think) before it was too late and did a huge (but possible) mistake... Well, if I remember my own example right, "rabies" is apparently rare in the US...
And I would say that not knowing about the concept of "running away" as a detective is MORE sinful than a doctor not knowing about pregnancy.
Since running away is a human respond. It's a huge part of human psychology. And if you as a detective can't even nudge on that possibility, you fail big time. Not just this time, but most likely everytime.
But what about his perspective. His knowledge on all this.
I'd already mentioned two examples to counter this respond. But you weren't happy with them and brought up your own "what ifs".
Sure, I can give you those.
How about the fact that:
1) He knew she was beaten and abused.
2) He knows the parents are lying about her not being home after school.
He even ponders on these two fact (and still doesn't even nudge on the possibility of a runaway)...
And let me ask you this again: WHAT do point out she has been kidnapped in the first place?
We (he) has had five insights:
2) Lying parents about her being home.
3) Teacher "confession"
You think he might be lying which is possible, but the whole situation in itself (from the detective's perspective) reaks of strangeness.
4) Old lady's testomony.
You made a fair point, I will give you that.
5) He knows she is with someone (right now).
But once again; why kidnapped?
Lets look at all "general" possibilites for cases like these:
1) Kidnapped -from school
2) Parents killed her
3) Runaway -alone
4) Runaway -suicide
5) Runaway -kind soul taking her in
6) Runaway -kidnapped
So why just kidnapped, why must malice had been involved?
I never said that he could still believe that she was kidnapped. But when WE see him getting these great insight (like parents lying of her not being home), THINKING it's strange, and is still not able to think "outside the box" is just weird.
The ONLY thing I could think of that may led to a conclusion of her not running away is her not having friends (anywhere to go).
But that is rather weak excuse to dissmiss a potential runaway (especially since he haven't even THOUGHT of the possibility yet, which IS my issue).
But what would YOU think after having these 5 insights? Not as a reader knowing, but in general after hearing this.
Would you be hardcore on the path of "kidnapped with malice" without even considering the other possibilites?
Let me tell you this, YOU as far as I'm concerned is a normal human being, and yet I believe YOU should have the intelligence to see past certain things. But for this genius detective I should not?
And your highnote... Sorry, but it was kinda weak... I don't want to go to hard on it since I can be "one of those" as well... But at least remember this is a translation where the small stuff can get lost... Especially semantics.
And sorry to inform you that you most likely will have to follow up. :D
This is a discussion afterall. But if you don't want to, hey, I don't blame you.
Ps. I understand why you put "spoilers" on something that didn't spoil...