Karakai Jouzu no Takagi-san

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Vol. 11 Ch. 92 - Acchi Muite Hoi
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@CKT0304 oh, okay. Though I think you wanted to ping TSP instead of me. Well, it's not a surprise that this variation of the game exists in China, you know, considering that rock-paper-scissors itself was invented there.
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@Batora @henman
I should add this in the comment if it's a little late, the game is also exists in Chinese speaking community, which we call ้ป‘็™ฝ็Œœ็”ท็”Ÿๅฅณ็”Ÿ้… (means black white guess, boys and girls match). The game works the same as Japanese version with the rules like this:
1) We play normal rock paper scissor normally while we shout ้ป‘็™ฝ็Œœ.
2) The winning hand have to point their finger to up, down, left or right direction of their choice while losing hand have to not face the direction of the winning hand finger. In this step, we shout ็”ท็”Ÿๅฅณ็”Ÿ้….
In short, this game is actually able to localize into Chinese, but it's harder for English since there is no similar game out there.
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@Batora I like acchi-muite-hoi version more.
Personally I prefer if jan-ken-pon is not replaced too. They should be one-syllable to keep the rhythm of counting. And preserve the athmosphere, of course.
I also prefer ojou-sama instead of "miss", "lady" or whatever they can imagine
I also prefer banzai instead of "hooray"...no comments.
And I can't stand when they drop all honorifics or try to replace them with something else. That's blasphemy
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This manga make me so angry sometimes.
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Anyone noticed that Takagi didn’t use honorifics to greet Nishikata...
Doing it unprotected I see
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@asdfwanderer

If he had looked down, confirming he liked her, he would have "won" her
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@OniBarubary whats the double meaing?
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and people argued about rock-paper-scissors, W-e-e-b-s.
uh, ok Gintoki, start the music!
1..
2...
3....!
ACCHI MUITE
KOCCHI MUITE
JIDAI O SAKEBE
ACCHI MUITE
KOCCHI MUITE
IZA NARASE!
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ั…ะผะผะผ
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The Dark Souls of Rock-Paper-Scissors.
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@Batora it will lose the context of jankenpon variety that japanese has becaus lot other variety is not only one like this, but a lot.... gintama has a whole chapter of this joke alone in owee arc but different version when the loser must take helmet and the winner slap it with hammer toy, who faster is winner...

take SYD above example, boku girl is simply mean the girl who using male prononcation to refer them self.... which pretty much do interchangeable with masculine female in a way (but again, lost context about complexity in japan language)... it's not changeable because 1, it lost it contect, 2 it's nonchangable pun....

this chapter has cultural background which is more interesting about it trivia if it keep that way (hence TN)... golden kamuy even more balatant, and uses mostly historical cultural refference which is does interchangable , but lost it context if it's simply translated in english... they can translate hinna as delicious, but why?... EHS doing a very great job keeping the context tone while giving lot of trivia about information rather than simply lost in translation...

so, sure you can do a full translation, but personally, keep the context as the way it is, find a way to make it understable to english audience, then represented it in natural way, still more interesting that simply doing direct translation....
Last edited 2 years ago by MangaDex.
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@TSP
Thanks for the complete answer.
First, I'm sorry for the language before, it was directed more at the community and not meant as feedback for the group itself.
Second, it absolutely a product of your hard work. I won't ask for anything more than simply more of it as it is.

Now, I'll just explain my opinion better, because as I can now totally see where you come from, it's only fair to do the same.

It seemed sloppy for me because both the "foreign-ness of the concept" and the aesthetics of the typesetting weighted less on my balance than on yours.
Why:
- Pretty much the entirety of the reader base of MangaDex should already be aware that the story takes place in Japan. So there's that common ground from where any foreign elements should not feel as jarring to them as they would to an absolute neophyte.
- Even if they don't know AMH, I don't see how romaji will help people immerse themselves into a very basic game for kids, that has less rules than RPS itself. I think that anyone can figure out how it works from a couple of rounds.
- Without getting to extreme examples, a sacrifice in aesthetics is not worth the handbrake maneuver that is reading romaji. Specially for native English-speaking readers (not my case though).
- Professional publishers were I live localize the scripts completely and use some pages at the end of the book to explain any weird culture element on the volume. I don't expect the same standards on free scanlations, of course (the audience is different too) but it's the professionals that usually set a good standard practice to try and follow.

>We localize and recreate the majority of gags, puns, and jokes in Takagi in general. This time, we decided differently.
You absolutely do. I've been following the releases and this is the first time that reading got weird for me.



@Kuma
You said it youself:
>will always keep it that way if it's not interchangeable in english language
Those are not the same conditions, as I didn't see this whole RPS game as something that's not interchangeable.
Aside from that, I do think that the last panel reads poorly. Maybe it is interchangeable but I won't speak from outside my limited knowledge, as I'm not a native English speaker.
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@TSP

se(i)tokai yakuindomo (lol) is this
https://mangadex.org/manga/1597/seitokai-yakuindomo

and no, it's not heavily localized at all... yes, translator try to making trick on the puns if it's available in english or it's words (which mainly sex jokes) actually do available in english.... but will always keep it that way is it's not interchangable in english language or it will lose it's context... like this recent page for example



so he is literaly BS....
Last edited 2 years ago by MangaDex.
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@Batora

Since we translated jan-ken-pon as rock-paper-scissors, by "random romaji", I assume you mean acchi-muite-hoi, yes?

I suppose we could have done "scorch the earth" localization and translated acchi-muite-hoi as "look over there" or something to that effect, but we decided to keep it in exactly because we wanted to highlight the total foreign-ness of the concept. There are quite a few people out there who don't understand how different rock-paper-scissors is in Japan compared to other countries. No doubt, most people aren't normally aware that a mini-game often follows. Localizing such a concept seemed a bit too much for us, especially when we take account the fact that we have to localize for a global audience.

Had Takagi and Nishikata immediately jumped into the mini-game instead of prefacing it with a game of rock-paper-scissors, I could see a much stronger case for localizing acchi-muite-hoi more radically, then explaining the game in an end-of-chapter note instead. However, since the two play a round of rock-paper-scissors first, I think the confusion over what they were doing would have made for a worse reader experience.

Granted, we could have blended the two options by totally localizing acchi-muite-hoi AND prefacing the concept first, but once again, we decided to keep it as-is to highlight the foreign-ness of the idea.

Perhaps it seems sloppy and unnecessary to you because you've already been introduced to the concept of acchi-muite-hoi, but I doubt that those who know nothing about it would share your feelings. All in all, I would say that yes, we do think that the readers gained something from the translation note since even @Bainhardt was happy to learn more about a concept that had been veiled by heavy localization.

There was also an aesthetic consideration taken into account for not replacing "hoi" with "there." As you may have noticed, speech bubbles in this series are very thin, so it's often difficult to fit what we want into them. Of course, this is merely a secondary consideration when trying to make a translation as readable as possible, but it does factor into the decision-making process, since we can't write whatever we want if it won't fit into the space we are given. This is simply a part of manga translation, something that you can never entirely ignore if you want to create something that looks good.

You're free to disagree with our opinion, of course, but I thought I'd at least explain to you and the other commenters what our thought-process was on the decision, and that it wasn't a decision we made on the fly, but spent some thought on.

Ultimately, we'll never make everyone happy since everyone has their own opinion about how far one ought to localize something, so we can only do our best by weighing each option carefully and choosing whichever one we feel works best in our eyes.

P.S. Out of curiosity, what were the other easy translations you had in mind for this concept? I can explain why I don't think "Look away!" works, but I'm curious if you had any of your own ideas about viable alternatives.

P.S.S. I don't know much about Setokai Yakuindomo, but I assume it has a lot of gags, puns, and cultural jokes. We localize and recreate the majority of gags, puns, and jokes in Takagi in general. This time, we decided differently.
Last edited 2 years ago by MangaDex.
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@Bainhardt
Not angry. Just a bit tilted. (?)
I don't mind the extra pages explaining culture. A lot of groups do that. But random romaji in the chapter does not really read great, not when there are easy translations available.
Last edited 2 years ago by MangaDex.
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Oh, I got @ mentioned in a very angry message, lol.
I didn't mean to indicate how the translation "should have been done." I just wanted to show people this game was in Mario Party a long time ago.
Personally, I liked learning this game is called Acchi Muite Hoi. I think it's cool to learn little things about Japanese culture and daily life through manga.
If you localize too heavily "on behalf" of the readers, sometimes you take that away from them instead.
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I won't apologize for asking for a better release. No one here answered my questions, did we gain anything from the unstranslated stuff?. As @Bainhardt just showed, you can translate and deliver the second part of the game as usual in English without any 2006-tier romanization. It still is a version of RPS to me.
For those little fucks who still think the release is fine as it is, check how this stuff should be done in any Setokai Yakuindomo release.
Last edited 2 years ago by MangaDex.
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@Naabii, watch as Nishikata gets outplayed by Takagi during the proposal and the wedding ceremony. And @Batora, pls appreciate the TL's more. They put that in so people can understand the game. It's really similar to Rock-Paper-Scissors, but there is a variation at the end. It's usually only played in places like Japan and Taiwan.
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Batora throw your L's up!!!
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@Batora
burnt like a sonata.
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